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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : John Chrysostom (347-407) on 1 Corinthians.

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ChrisA
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Joined: 2022/7/8
Posts: 131


 Re:

Who was the patriarch in the New Testament, Brenda? There wasn't one. The word isn't used. There are elders (bishops) and deacons, yes. Peter was the apostle to the circumcised, and Paul to the uncircumcised.

If you were correct - and you are not - then children cannot be saved. They must jump through your theological hoops first. Funny how many children know Jesus as Lord and Saviour. Many, like myself so many years ago, have seen Him and heard His voice. The Gospel that saves is SIMPLE - the riches and complexity of that same saving Gospel can be searched out for eternity and never be exhausted. The complexity never contradicts or undermines the simplicity- it only deepens it. That is how Jesus saves simple folk and children, then gives them wisdom from above as they walk with Him and mature in the faith.

 2024/2/12 15:23Profile
twayneb
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Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2256
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
If you understand that the appearance of tongues at Pentecost was sign of judgement for the unbelieving Jews present (Babel) and later was used for missionary purposes, then it makes perfect sense.



Can you offer some Biblical support for this doctrine? Is there anywhere I am missing in scripture that even implies that tongues on the day of Pentacost were for a sign of judgement on the Jews who did not believe in Jesus as Messiah?


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Travis

 2024/2/12 15:33Profile
twayneb
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Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2256
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Todd: Referencing your note about Phillip's commentary.

I don't really see any contradiction. Let me see if I can articulate what I see, my perspective anyway.

Verses 20-22 are almost parenthetical if you will.

Prior to verse 20, Paul has just explained that tongues without interpretation do not edify the hearer, but the speaker. In fact, unless there is an interpretation, the speaker is like a barbarian to the hearer, as a foreigner that cannot be understood.

But in verse 20, Paul inserts prophecy about the day of Pentacost. We know that Joel prophesied tongues, and Peter made this clear in his speech. But tongues were also prophesied in Isaiah 28:11, and Paul brings this up in verse 20. So verses 20-22 all speak of this prophecy. Tongues, that were prophesied) are for a sign to the unbelieving Jews, to convince them that what they are seeing is God and is the fulfillment of Joel's prophesy. Peter even reiterates this to them. But prophesy belongs to the believer, to speak forth the words of the Lord to build one another up. Tongues alone, apart from interpretation, don't serve the purpose of edifying the body.

Now on to verse 23, where Paul again returns to the general point of this part of his letter. "Therefore...". So if we are all together and we all jabber on in tongues, and an unbeliever, or an uninitiated believer (unlearned) comes in, these people will think we are crazy. But if the unlearned or the unbelieving come in and we all exercise the gift of prophecy, then they will have the secrets of their heart revealed and judged by the prophesy given. They will have to admit that God is among us.

This is my understanding of these verses. Like I said, I don't see a contradiction in it. I think the key is verse 20 and understanding that Paul is speaking of the tongues in the prophecies of Joel and Isaiah that were fulfilled at Pentacost in verses 20-22.


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Travis

 2024/2/12 16:09Profile
brendaM
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Joined: 2024/1/19
Posts: 304
North Eastern UK

 Re:

Travis

Will have to get back later, but can you give me some scriptures that confirm some of the well known types mentioned in scripture, such as Moses being a type of Jesus, crossing the Red Sea being salvation? Thank you.

 2024/2/12 17:39Profile
brendaM
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Joined: 2024/1/19
Posts: 304
North Eastern UK

 Re:

ChrisA

Of course they were bishops in NT times. I never said they were otherwise.

Strange you know my theology. Please let me in on it. Children are born innocent according to my understanding. Otherwise I haven't a clue what you are on about.

 2024/2/12 17:43Profile
ChrisA
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Joined: 2022/7/8
Posts: 131


 Re:

Your theological stance on many matters is found in your frequent posts, Brenda. That is no insult. You clearly express yourself, whether others agree or not.

 2024/2/12 20:17Profile
brendaM
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Joined: 2024/1/19
Posts: 304
North Eastern UK

 Re:

Travis

Sorry l have not answered your questions properly regarding Babylon/Pentecost, to your satisfaction. It has been a recent discovery for me and l haven't yet worked right through it. The more l look into it though the more it makes sense to me as l have never found the explanation for which unbelievers tongues were a sign for, satisfying.

Hearing foreign languages which they denied knowing would probably just suggest reincarnation to them, and babbling would just imply madness as scripture says.

 2024/2/13 1:48Profile
brendaM
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Joined: 2024/1/19
Posts: 304
North Eastern UK

 Re:

//If you were correct - and you are not - then children cannot be saved. They must jump through your theological hoops first. Funny how many children know Jesus as Lord and Saviour. Many, like myself so many years ago, have seen Him and heard His voice. The Gospel that saves is SIMPLE - the riches and complexity of that same saving Gospel can be searched out for eternity and never be exhausted. The complexity never contradicts or undermines the simplicity- it only deepens it. That is how Jesus saves simple folk and children, then gives them wisdom from above as they walk with Him and mature in the faith.//

ChrisA

Have managed to get round to this one at last. I agree on the simplicity of knowing Jesus and that children are welcomed by Him. To know Jesus is not the same thing as Him being Lord and Saviour in my understanding though. I knew Jesus for a long period before He was my Lord and Saviour. I mean in reality and not just words.

His arms are open for all but if one does not allow the Holy Spirit free reign within us, and obeying Him immediately and absolutely, then someone or something else is Lord. That is what scripture teaches me. Everything else is another gospel and condemned by Him.

 2024/2/13 4:22Profile
twayneb
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Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2256
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Will have to get back later, but can you give me some scriptures that confirm some of the well known types mentioned in scripture, such as Moses being a type of Jesus, crossing the Red Sea being salvation? Thank you.



I am not sure what you are getting at here. The well known types and antetypes are clearly given. For example, Moses lifting the serpent (the type) has the antetype "And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so shall the Son of Man be lifted up" Another would be the entrance of Israel into the promised land, the antetype of which is given in Hebrews 3 and 4.

My point is that types and antetypes are clearly given in scripture. We know them as such because of their clarity. We cannot have a theory and simply call it a type and antetype. We cannot go beyond scripture. We stay within scripture and rightly divide the word of truth.


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Travis

 2024/2/13 10:15Profile
twayneb
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Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2256
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Sorry l have not answered your questions properly regarding Babylon/Pentecost, to your satisfaction. It has been a recent discovery for me and l haven't yet worked right through it. The more l look into it though the more it makes sense to me as l have never found the explanation for which unbelievers tongues were a sign for, satisfying.



It is not about my satisfaction. I have no dog in this hunt. It is about what scripture says and does not say. If tongues at Pentacost is a sign of God's judgement on the Jews, and if this is so because it is related to Babel, then where does scripture teach this? If this is the way we handle scripture, to find ideas we would like to be related and make doctrines out of them, then we will quickly abandon sound doctrine and wind up in error. We must stay within scripture here. If the Bible clearly teaches it, then it is doctrine and we MUST be dogmatic about it. If the Bible teaches it, but there is some disagreement about the exact interpretation, we have some wiggle room and can discuss it. But if it is NOWHERE found in scripture, we must discard it and say that it is not Biblical. So I will leave it here. If the Bible does not teach it, then it is simply not Biblical and must be rejected.

Again, I don't have a dog in this hunt. I am simply comparing what we are discussing to the Bible and what it does an does not clearly teach. After all, don't we all want to be conformed to the truth of scripture in our thinking?

If I find that something I have believed for years is not in the Bible, then I WANT to reject that thing and conform myself to the Word. I will stand before God one of these days and be judged by what is in His word and what I have done with it. I want to be right in His presence. IF that means I must say 100 times that I was wrong and change my stance, so be it.


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Travis

 2024/2/13 10:23Profile





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