Poster | Thread | twayneb Member

Joined: 2009/4/5 Posts: 2256 Joplin, Missouri
| Re: | | Quote:
The Jews in Jerusalem would know of this reversal, but if they still refused to acknowledge the Son of God under such a revelation and miracle, the judgement of the Tower of Babel would be reinforced, as they refused to unite with their fellow Jews who were now saved, showing their pride, the thing that God hates, and was the reason for the curse of Babylon. This is the sign for unbelievers, to give them an opportunity to repent.
I'm sorry, but I cannot agree with you on this.
In their journey to the wilderness, God judged the people and then had Moses make a brazen serpent and put it on a pole. In the New Testament we have scripture tying Jesus on the cross back to the brazen serpent. The two are related and the first is a foreshadowing of the second.
We don't find that anywhere in scripture for Babel and Pentacost. Conflating these two events is an idea of a man, not a truth of scripture. We use scripture to establish doctrine. To establish doctrine based upon something a man thinks he found in scripture is, in my opinion, dangerous as it adds to the Bible an idea that is not there.
For the proper use of tongues and to show that praying in tongues is Biblical (described in Paul's writings), let me use some context. In 1 Cor. 14, Paul is dealing with the correct use of tongues and prophecy. He says, "he that speaketh in a tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God, for no man understandeth, howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries." Later, "For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful." Later, "I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all, yet in the church..."
So here is what we know from 1 Cor. 14. Paul prayed in tongues. He spoke to God in tongues, which is the definition of prayer. And, he contrasted the tongues he spoke outside the church (when he was alone) to those inside the church (when he was fellowshipping with believers.) Remember that church, for these early believers, was in homes and other random places, not just in a "church building". In the church here means in the fellowship of believers.
So there is a "devotional", if that term is OK, application of praying in tongues apart from a message and interpretation that would be given in a fellowship. In the fellowship, very strict rules. Tongues along with interpretation, otherwise it does not edify. In private, tongues edifies the believer, even though the understanding of the believer is unfruitful. Hence verse 4, "He that speaketh in a tongue edifies himself", and verse 14, "For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prayeth but my understanding is unfruitful."
Some believe that this prayer in tongues by a believer has ceased. I find no scriptural evidence that this is the case. I do pray in tongues. It does NOT make me SPECIAL or MORE SPIRITUAL. NOT in any way, shape or form. It simply means that I pray in tongues. And I have seen it bear fruit in my life of encouragement and edification. It does NOT mean that I look down on or demean someone who says, " But I do not speak in tongues." That would not be the fruit of the Spirit if I did, and I think you would agree.
However, I do believe this to be a valid work of the Holy Spirit in believers today, just like it was in the church of Corinth. _________________ Travis
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| 2024/2/9 10:08 | Profile | Lysa Member

Joined: 2008/10/25 Posts: 3699 East TN for now!
| Re: | | Amen Colin!!
Hallelujah!!
_________________ Lisa
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| 2024/2/9 19:31 | Profile | narrowpath Member

Joined: 2005/1/9 Posts: 1522 Germany NRW
| Re: | | Paul said in the beginnig of chapter 12
1 Corinthians 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
and at the end of chapter 14 he says
1 Corinthians 14:38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
Paul used 3 chapters to explain all there is to explain about the charismata, the spiritual gifts.
He knew full well that there would be people slighting and denounce what he wrote.
He said: I do not want you to be ignorant, but if after all his detailed discourse, people do not want it, he said
"Let them be ignorant"
God sort of seals up their ignorance. No arguing helps. It is waisted effort. The John MacArthurs of this world with all their learning cannot understand it, because if they did, they would have to surrender themselves to this truth and be filled with the Holy Spirit. So they have to put on this shell of ignorance to shield themselves from being convicted otherwise.
Those of us who have received this precious gift have to live with the stigma of being called loonies and all sorts of names. This keeps us humble.
So, let them be ignorant, they want it so.
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| 2024/2/10 3:14 | Profile | brendaM Member

Joined: 2024/1/19 Posts: 304 North Eastern UK
| Re: | | //We don't find that anywhere in scripture for Babel and Pentacost. Conflating these two events is an idea of a man, not a truth of scripture. We use scripture to establish doctrine. To establish doctrine based upon something a man thinks he found in scripture is, in my opinion, dangerous as it adds to the Bible an idea that is not there.//
If you don't see it, then I cannot help on that one any further. It seems so impossible for me not to see that it is about the divisions of languages by God and in the enabling of Him for men to understand each other and to give His Son Jesus His endorsement..
Brother you are making a leap to turn praying in the Spirit to praying in tongues that is not there.
//"For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful." Later, "I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all, yet in the church..."//
Paul is now speaking of foreign languages that the speaker does not know.
I would like to thank those who have joined in. My purpose is not to just to argue but I wish to understand the mindset of those who are in this tongue movement which began 100 years ago. |
| 2024/2/10 7:56 | Profile | deogloria Member

Joined: 2020/2/12 Posts: 393
| Re: | | "The John MacArthurs of this world with all their learning cannot understand it, because if they did, they would have to surrender themselves to this truth and be filled with the Holy Spirit. So they have to put on this shell of ignorance to shield themselves from being convicted otherwise."
This is quite a self-righteous comment. I can assure you all that I don't put on this shell of ignorance to shield myself from being convicted. Thankfully I know what I believe and I'm always try and discern what is true and what is not.
On the other hand it can be dangereous to have an experience and then go and find scriptures to justify the experience. Probably not much point to discuss this any further.
"Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you..." blessings
Markus |
| 2024/2/10 10:15 | Profile | murrcolr Member

Joined: 2007/4/25 Posts: 1839 Scotland, UK
| Re: | | Quote: On the other hand it can be dangereous to have an experience and then go and find scriptures to justify the experience.
That's exactly what Cessationism does. They say there is no gifts and then go and try and prove it.
Have a listen to Justin Peter's - there is no silver bullet that says the gifts have ceased.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEJx47gMTZI
John MacArthur / Justin Peters - having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people. 2 Tim 3:5
Avoid such people - Is what my bible says.. _________________ Colin Murray
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| 2024/2/10 11:11 | Profile | brendaM Member

Joined: 2024/1/19 Posts: 304 North Eastern UK
| Re: | | it's not the same thing at all, to have an experience and look for scripture, as opposed to not having that experience. The first one is open to deception. I am sure that all who say no tongues have been open at one time to receive them as I have.
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| 2024/2/10 11:24 | Profile | murrcolr Member

Joined: 2007/4/25 Posts: 1839 Scotland, UK
| Re: | | Why is not the same!
Not having an experience, is a experience.
But the issue here is what the scripture says, which you and others seem to ignore.
There are plenty of scriptures about the gifts of the spirit and what to expect when you believe in Jesus.
But there is not a silver bullet that says the gifts have ceased. I am using Justin Peter's words.
So on that basis base alone we can clearly see where the deception lies.
We were warned that in the last days that people would have a a form of Godliness by deny the power. _________________ Colin Murray
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| 2024/2/10 12:27 | Profile | ESchaible Member

Joined: 2023/6/24 Posts: 548
| Re: | | Ironic how the gifts are being heatedly debated with absolutely no fruit of the Spirit being demonstrated at all.
Like Corinth, the more excellent way is tabled for the carnality of seeking gifts and the opinions of men.
Carry on.
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| 2024/2/10 13:14 | Profile | narrowpath Member

Joined: 2005/1/9 Posts: 1522 Germany NRW
| Re: | | I agree with Colin
[On the other hand it can be dangereous to have an experience and then go and find scriptures to justify the experience. Probably not much point to discuss this any further.]
What is wrong with an experience that is recorded in the bible over and over?
John McArthur may say many right and good things, but he wrote "Charismatic Chaos" and hosted the "Strange Fire" conference. He is the point of reference and the go to ministry when it comes to cessationism.
He is not only ignorant, but outright hostile towards anything charistmatic and pentecostal and malignes Spirit filled Christians. He and his companions Justin Peters and Phil Johnson did damage to the body of Christ. Michael Brown reached out to Justin to discuss this matter, but he refused.
When you read Acts, they made sure everbody was receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Peter and John went into Samaria to lay hands on the believers. Paul laid hands on the disciples of John the Baptist.
I conclude that the filling of the Holy Spirit is an essential part of the whole process of conversion and becoming a disciple of Jesus. How can you do without?
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| 2024/2/10 15:08 | Profile |
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