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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Heresy of Cessationism

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murrcolr
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Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1839
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Quote: A sign of what?

For it stands written in the law:

I will bring my message to this people with strange tongues and foreign lips, yet even then they still will not listen to me, says the Lord.

So then, tongues are not a sign for believers, but a miracle for unbelievers. Prophecy, on the other hand, is not for unbelievers, but a miracle sign for believers.


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Colin Murray

 2024/2/7 10:29Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2256
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
If I am in a prayer meeting with non-Pentecostals, I will not pray in tongues, I know of a Baptist Church that was having prayer meetings and many pastors from denominational churches were gathering to pray. A Pentecostal lady got involved in the prayer meeting gave ia strong message in tongues, and after that was the end to the prayer meetings. she was out of order, and that was not of the Lord.



Yes!


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Travis

 2024/2/7 10:30Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2256
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
I had an insight this evening, that Paul in chapter 12, is saying to the Corinthians that it is all noise without love.

Now love is the foremost fruit of the Spirit, I hope everyone agrees.



Yes. You cannot divorce 1 Cor. 13 from the context of 12 and 14. The fruit of love must be the core motivation for the operation of the gifts of the Spirit. They are NEVER self serving, to make one look spiritual. We should NEVER have envy toward another where the gifts they operate in are concerned. They are manifestations of God's love to minister to another.


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Travis

 2024/2/7 10:43Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2256
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
As a side note, I find it rather sad that tongues is held up as the pinnacle of spirituality and the litmus test for the baptism of the Holy Spirit. On the day of Pentecost no one spoke in languages people didn't understand; they spoke in known languages. I believe "glossolalia" is a legitimate gift (though maybe more uncommon than people think?). But the majority of people I know who speak in "tongues" only did so because of peer pressure to look spiritual. They say it's the language of angels; if so, angels must have the most limited vocabulary in the universe. Shouldaboughtahonda!



Untiemybowtie whostolemyhonda SHONDI!

Love it!

I agree with you here. I also am a pentacostal. I believe speaking in tongues is valid and for today as well. But I wholeheartedly agree with what you said here.


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Travis

 2024/2/7 10:47Profile
brendaM
Member



Joined: 2024/1/19
Posts: 304
North Eastern UK

 Re:

//So then, tongues are not a sign for believers, but a miracle for unbelievers. Prophecy, on the other hand, is not for unbelievers, but a miracle sign for believers.//

How does that work then if it is said to be a judgement in the OT on the Jews who would not accept Jesus? If I was unsaved and heard it in a church I would run a mile! I would think that I had entered a psychiatric ward! Of course as has been pointed out, what goes on in a lot of places, is not spiritual but false use of tongues.



 2024/2/7 11:17Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2256
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Collin: I agree with the tongues of angels comment. There is no scripture that definitively says that tongues can be the tongues of angels. The scripture says, "Even if I can speak in the tongues of men and of angles, and have not love..." That would be like me saying, "Even if I were fit enough to jump over the moon..." This is not evidence that people can jump over the moon. I also believe tongues will be a known, human language. However, I must be honest and say that scripture nowhere limits this either. But I agree with your perspective on that.


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Travis

 2024/2/7 11:33Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2256
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
//So then, tongues are not a sign for believers, but a miracle for unbelievers. Prophecy, on the other hand, is not for unbelievers, but a miracle sign for believers.//

How does that work then if it is said to be a judgement in the OT on the Jews who would not accept Jesus? If I was unsaved and heard it in a church I would run a mile! I would think that I had entered a psychiatric ward! Of course as has been pointed out, what goes on in a lot of places, is not spiritual but false use of tongues.



I think it is a mistake to conflate Babel and the day of Pentacost.

Babel: Men are setting up false Gods, building a tall structure for worship of these false Gods. Men are not obeying the commandment to go and fill the whole Earth. I will confuse their languages to cause them to obey and put a stop to this idolatry.

Prophecy given to Joel: They will speak with other tongues.

Fulfillment of Joel's Prophecy: This is that which was spoken of by the prophet Joel. Men who did not know a language spoke that language perfectly proclaiming the things of God (in the correct dialects) to bear witness to the unbelievers that this was God. This was not a permanent changing of language. This was a supernatural gift of the Holy Spirit to bear witness.

Ongoing: This is where the disagreement comes in so many times. Paul said, "I pray in tongues more than you all." This was not the gift of tongues with accompanying interpretation. This was devotional prayer in tongues. This is taught about several places in the New Testament if we will study it. The gift of tongues will be used by God on occasion as He wills. He will use a person to do this and perhaps the same but usually another person to interpret it. I believe this will be a real tongue and if a person is present who knows that language, they will attest to it. Reference my story of the 14 year old daughter of a friend of mine.

All of these things must be decent and in order. I don't think God is going to prompt me to pray loudly in tongues in a place where people who do not understand or do not believe it is God are present. Nor would I expect God to give a message in tongues in this environment. They would not understand the language anyway, and I would seem to them to be a barbarian. But suppose I am in that place and there are a few native Polish speakers and the message in tongues is in Polish. A message in tongues would be a witness to the people in that place. (My understanding of scripture in this paragraph)

But I don't think we can conflate Babel and Pentacost. The only common factor is a difference in languages, and this is not enough to say they are related in any way.


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Travis

 2024/2/7 11:47Profile
brendaM
Member



Joined: 2024/1/19
Posts: 304
North Eastern UK

 Re:

13 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

*I think this is called hyperbole when he says 'if I could speak all the languages in the world and even heaven'.*

2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

*Again hyperbole if I understood all the mysteries in the world, and had all the knowledge in the world and enough faith to move mountains*

3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

*Again even if I give everything I owned away and offer my body to the fire*

No love, which commeth with the baptism of the Spirit and is spread abroad in the heart, something that must be experienced (and is never forgotten)

I did not consciously love God before the baptism so that I would immediately die for Him. Respect and admiration yes.
r

 2024/2/7 11:52Profile
AbideinHim
Member



Joined: 2006/11/26
Posts: 5185
Louisiana

 Re:

“I also believe tongues will be a known, human language. However, I must be honest and say that scripture nowhere limits this either. But I agree with your perspective on that.”

Many of those that received the Baptism of HS at Azusa believed that they were receiving a foreign language to go forth into the nations and preach the gospel in the language of the people. There have been many instances of tongues being released in meetings that were perfectly understood by people from other nations.


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Mike

 2024/2/7 13:07Profile
brendaM
Member



Joined: 2024/1/19
Posts: 304
North Eastern UK

 Re:

//Many of those that received the Baptism of HS at Azusa believed that they were receiving a foreign language to go forth into the nations and preach the gospel in the language of the people. There have been many instances of tongues being released in meetings that were perfectly understood by people from other nations.//

I was reading recently, that after thinking they had received a foreign language, some of them went abroad confident that they would not need to go to language school but found that they in fact could not speak the language of the land they went to. It was very embarrassing.

https://charlesasullivan.com/8601/garrs-missionary-crisis-speaking-tongues/

 2024/2/7 13:14Profile





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