Colin,

I guess the best way for me to completely diffuse your entire rant is to simply tell you I have, and do speak in tongues as the Holy Spirit wills - and have operated and still do operate in many of the gifts, all as the Holy Spirit wills. In fact, because of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, I have operated in all of the gifts mentioned at some point in my life, again, as the Spirit of Christ within me wills and manifests them.

“Come and hear, all you who fear God, and I will tell what he has done for my soul. I cried to him with my mouth, and high praise was on my tongue. If I had cherished iniquity in my heart, the Lord would not have listened.” (Psalms 66:16-18)

The difference is the context of the telling - does it glorify Jesus and point men to Him and whatever it is that He chooses the give them - or is it to self and a prejudicial view that "you need what I have or you don't have anything".

Pointing men to your experience is to tell them that what God has done for you is a cookie cutter experience to what all men need - this includes tongues, or any other gift. The proof of this is the prophecy that was fulfilled on Pentecost, and that it didn't even include what you and many say is the sole manifestation of someone being baptized in the Holy Spirit - tongues.

I'll bow out of this, because in telling everyone I am a "false accuser", you have falsely accused me.

““Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye. “Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you.” (Matthew 7:1-6)

"lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you"

Interesting how that teaching of Jesus plays out exactly when hypocrisy is involved.

1. As I tried to show, brother Evan, Paul knew when it was time to be a fool and I wish you had seen that this thread was such. And shared your experience earliest - or at least on your 1st post on the thread. But you did not, instead you went to censor generically seemly and left the brethren to guess which side of the fence you might be in.

2. If you still feel you are justified, then chances are you did not read all posts in the thread so that you make informed comments or rebukes.

3. Like I said, brothers felt condemned by the sister's presented position. I would say we felt the way folks are said to have felt when they read that Jessy Pen and Evan Roberts book. So the presented experiences and scriptures were in defense largely.

4. When Paul thought his audience were babes, he did not shut up, he spoke to them as babes (and withheld the meaty matters - until such a time as they should prove ready therefor).

PS. I do not think there is anyone regular here on SI who is knowingly seeking their own glory.

_________________
Kervin

Mr Ravenhill is said to have witnessed devine healing for one in his ministry - but he barely spoke about it if anyone ever heard him do. When he was asked why, he said he was too busy preaching Jesus.

While that is very commendable, if any would arise and claim Christ did not heal divinely any longer, Mr Ravehill would have no valid choice but to testify his experiences of devine healing. When John sent to ask if Jesus was Christ, he said go tell John the blind see, ...

_________________
Kervin

Kervin said:
"1. As I tried to show, brother Evan, Paul knew when it was time to be a fool and I wish you had seen that this thread was such. And shared your experience earliest - or at least on your 1st post on the thread. But you did not, instead you went to censor generically seemly and left the brethren to guess which side of the fence you might be in."

That is the whole problem, there should only be one "side of the fence". The fact that this issue makes that question even arise is proof it is fleshly and based on carnality.

I should not have to share any subjective experience to be welcomed by "brethren" who claim service to my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. I stand and fall before only one, the omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent God and Savior Jesus Christ. Our fellowship is with the Him, and there is no fellowship between light and darkness - fellowship isn't shared between men, it is a shared communion with God, together with others. We don't find fellowship in each other, we share fellowship together with God.

My experiences with God hold no bearing in fellowship - and if they do I am wrong. If I were to look at someone who walks with My Lord and say they didn't because they haven't had borne the same crosses I have, experienced the same specific manifestations of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit I have, or any other subjective thing that is likely unique to my relationship to my Lord, I am falling into the devils trap of self exaltation.

There is no difference between the frenzy and fanaticism found in this thread and the frenzy and fanaticism found in a cessationist camp. It's the same divisive and sectarian mindset. It always bases the reality of God in experience (lack of experience is still experience and no different).

Jesus is always politely asked to have a seat while the grown ups discuss things that actually matter.

I'm content with being a simple child, even if others take that as being a "babe" in Christ. The longer I walk with God, the more I realize that the only thing that really matters is what matters to God the Father - ie. God the Son, Jesus Christ and His glorification by the Holy Spirit, and the unity of His true people through the love of God.

You keep bringing up Paul speaking foolishly and sharing his experiences. He had to do that because he was addressing people who were walking in carnality - and since you've said I should have spoken as a fool, sharing my experiences earlier, what does that say about the participants of this thread?

As I said, this thread is in small what Corinth was in large - carnality parading itself as spirituality.

Accuse me of anything you like, but as I said before, which is true of us all, we stand or fall before Jesus Christ - and your fanatical threads on spiritual gifts, your defense of the same, it all goes out the window because when you step away from the forum, who you truly are deep within when no one else is looking, THAT is who you are in the all seeing eyes of Jesus Christ, the great God and Savior.

Staying out of this would be easy, but a few comments already known are needed as essential reminders to one and all.

Before that, Evan is absolutely right but needs no defense.


If this whole conversation and far too many others were truly about witnessing and demonstrating God's reality and power, each of you would be describing your experiences with a lot more intensity and regularity mostly if not only about how God in the power of the Spirit has made you more Christlike. Or how God had moved you in your poverty and affliction as you gave yourself to the Lord to give all you had and then some with joy to meet the needs of the saints. Yet we know that such talk would mostly be inappropriate if spoken about ourselves. Someone else we would hope might tell that story about us to declare the manifest expression of the Spirit in supernatural powers and outpourings of love and joy in suffering and affliction and most profitably, spiritual maturity and transformation. Those are the stories that Paul tells, that the writer of Hebrews tells, that Jesus tells.

But not us. We are more mature than that. We are already kings. We have to go to the deeper things of God. (Tongue in cheek) Then to make it worse, we hide our self absorption
and focus on the not plain and not main things under the banner of the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" and its defense. That is on its face a misdirection and face painting.

Undeniably, Pentecost (the outpouring of the promised Spirit) was marked far far more by these manifestations that the church sorely needs focus on today :

1) Peter's unction in preaching the Gospel as the Spirit was upon Him and thousands got saved.

2) A church devoting themselves whole heartedly without distraction to the Apostles' doctrine (learning, living and sharing) , whole hearted unmixed devotion to the fellowship (or to one another) evidenced by selling all they had to care for one anothers' profound needs, whole hearted devotion to gathering together daily at great personal cost for the sake of the Body, and whole hearted devotion to corporate prayer with prayers focused on the needs of the Body and on encouragement and strengthening of the Body and on receiving the power to be witnesses of Jesus in word, character and deed.

3) Signs and wonders being done mostly by the Apostles to meet needs but not mostly as a demonstration of supernatural power but of a demonstration of compassion if you examine the treatment of signs in the telling of the Spirit in Acts.

4). The dramatic and very public killing of Annanias and Sapphira for hypocrisy. That certainly got some peoples' attention. What about praying for that kind of testimony where God won't tolerate hypocrisy among his people, that what they do must critically match what they say or else somebody is going to die.... Jesus hated hypocrisy and loved integrity of heart or men without guile. Isn't the Spirit here in a primary way to punish the former and create the latter? Most of you would say no. That isn't a big concern of the Spirit.

Those are just facts. Look at the book of Acts and see if these things are not so.

The mention of tongues in Acts was Biblically most definitely not about the second basptism that some obsess with. ( I have had dozens and dozens of His outpourings in love, joy and all gifts over a few decades just to show I'm not anti gifts or fillings). The tongue displays mentioned in Acts had to deal with speaking in languages that the crowd could hear the Gospel clearly through, proof that the Gentiles were included in the Kingdom and to show the difference or distinction between the baptism of repentance of John the Baptist and the spiritual baptism (not the outward cleaning) of Jesus which was descriptive of but not prescriptive of the new life in the promise of the Spirit ( one testimony). That is just Biblical. The Spirit of life is a Spirit of love and that was shed abroad in the first believers' hearts. All of them for the record.

Back to why I comment at all. This and many other threads relate to a state of mind and focus that I find to be a total distraction to the testimony of Jesus which is the Spirit's work in everything and is more indefensibly a demonstration, because of its intensity in volume, on self. It's always about "what I have suffered for the sake of the Lord", "what I am waiting for or longing for for me", "what I was told about me", "what I experienced in closeness to God", "what I think is important" or "what I define as the most spiritual". All most easily recognized as self focus. Again, how many have testified to receiving a a love and joy that was inextricably and directly connected to devotion to the Body, sacrifice and suffering for the Body? How many have testified that they are soul sick until their earthly life can be poured out on the faith of others and Christ being formed in others ? That is how Scripture most often describes the manifestation of the Spirit. But not us. No, we have entered into super spiritual territory that goes beyond all that pedestrian display or conversation of living and dying for others. It's all about the "wow" and comparing wows.

But, if I posted repeatedly telling everyone how sacrificial I was in loving the saints, you would say I was boasting or being self righteous. You know it is true. But if we boast about how special the Spirit has treated us in spiritual gifting or private experience we are somehow not boasting but super spiritual.

This is the crux of the matter and the rebuke of the Lord:

I challenge everyone, tell us all how the Spirit has transformed you into the likeness of Christ, how you spend your days completely and whole heartedly devoted to learning and living out the Apostles doctrine and sharing it with others, how you are whole heartedly devoted to the saints and their needs, how you are whole heartedly devoted to personally gathering day in and day out with the saints for their encouragement and growth, how you are devoted to corporate prayer mostly and primarily for the saints and how the leaven of hypocrisy (saying what and how much you know but not having it be real in your life), is so hated that you would rather have God take you out than have that testimony of hypocrisy be yours to the world or Jesus. That is the remarkable and most edifying and most representative work of the Spirit that the immature church and the world need. Then, we can start talking about ecstatic experiences as a confirmation of the Spirit rather than it being the essence of Him. If you have problems witnessing about yourself this way, enough said.

As 'super spiritual' as the debate may seem about which gifts are best or a back and forth about personal experiences may seem, it is all a gonging cymbal to God and most definitely not profitable in the least compared to what never passes away. Paul spends far more time talking about purging the church of its evil amongst the brethern as love to preserve the Body and ridding itself of its hypocrisy of not dealing with evil in the holy body of Christ to protect the reputation of Christ than he does on gifts. Just look it up.

That's not the Lord's rebuke from me, but it is the rebuking voice from the most gifted, most anointed and most used saint of the Spirit compared to all on this forum. Devote yourselves, your time and your words to imitate him.

Here's a passage to lock hold on:


Now, brothers and sisters, we make known to you the grace of God which has been given in the churches of Macedonia,

that in a great ordeal of affliction their abundance of joy and their deep poverty overflowed in the wealth of their liberality.

For I testify that according to their ability, and beyond their ability, they gave voluntarily, begging us with much urging for the favor [fn]of participation in the [fn]support of the saints, and this, not as we had expected, but they first gave themselves to the Lord and to us by the will of God.

It would be great if we could hear a few testimonies about how God pouring His Spirit out on you has blessed others no matter how you felt about the experience, only focusing on and speaking about how the Spirit worked through you only to bless others. How you begged God or some leader for the privilege of going deep in poverty to bless the saints. That is the purpose of the Spirit and Christ after all. Humility. Most testimonies I've read point to and are about self even if they thank God for it and that is not humility, it's more like the proud Pharisee who said, "thank God I'm not like those other'Christians', I speak in tongues".

BTW, tongues and ecstatic private or corporate personal spiritual experiences cost you nothing except perhaps being cleansed or emptied of self which is not a cost at all. Love costs everything. Is it any wonder where we focus ?

_________________
Robert

A further word of extreme caution when speaking of tongues. The easiest gifts for the enemy to counterfeit are tongues, whether foreign language or unknown, words of knowledge about someone's life, certain predictions of the future, and certain signs and wonders, including someone recovering from a fatal head wound.

I say that to not discourage seeking the gifts, but if you pursue them in love and a desire to build up the body, there is no room for the counterfeit to flourish.


Likewise, if tongues can be easily imitated (by the flesh) or much more easily counterfeited by the demons, then tongues themselves, by definition, cannot be concrete proof of anything. Sorry to the Pentecostal among us.

The Holy Spirit says a couple of things about concrete proof and sure evidence of the manifest presence of the Spirit. First, no one can confess with their mouth, believe in their heart and show by their life that Jesus is Lord unless the Holy Spirit is manifest. Second, the whole world will know that we are of the Spirit because we have unity of the faith working through a love mirroring the Father's love for Jesus that we have and show for one another.

Finally, the Spirit says all, including God, will know you are walking by the Spirit when your life matches the Word and is a likeness in mind, heart and will to Christ. The proof is in the life and not merely the mouth, whether of tongues, declarations or creeds.

You want proof of someone being in and full of the Spirit. Use the proofs announced most clearly by the Spirit in Scripture which cannot be imitated, counterfeited and won't be because the flesh nor demons would ever desire do it.

The Pentecostal proof is not the Lord's proof. That cannot be argued as all tongues, known and unknown languages, can easily be counterfeited and imitated. Therefore, by definition, it can't be proof.

_________________
Robert

Glossolalia existed in the ancient world, way before the first century, before the New Testament was written. The oracle at Delphi practised this. Herodotus and Virgil mention this phenomenon. African voodoo cults have done it for centuries. Mormons practice it as well.

I do believe tongues, both xenoglossia (speaking in a known language without learning it) and glossolalia (speaking in an unknown language) can both be gifts of the Holy Spirit.

We have to remember, though, that Satan is a master counterfeiter, and this is the easiest gift to fake.

It is frightening to me that so many people look to signs and wonders to prove Christianity, when Jesus so clearly said that a "wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign" (Matthew 16:4); He said that even someone rising from the dead would not convince an unbeliever (Luke 16:31), instead He tells us to look to the scriptures; He said that many, many people would tell Him on the day of judgment that they had worked miracles in His name, and He does not deny they did, but He does say that He never knew them; the scriptures warn us that false prophets can do miracles through demonic power; it happened before the Exodus from Egypt, it happened during the time of the Kings, it happened during the time of the apostles, and it will happen in the end times during the tribulation period.

Can God do miracles? Of course! But the ministry of the Holy Spirit is ALWAYS to convince of sin, righteousness, and judgment to come (John 16:8.)

_________________
Nigel Holland

The holy spirit functions mostly through the gifts of himself, to quench the gifts of the Spirit is to quench the spirit himself.

To downplay and speak against the gifts of the spirit, is to speak against the gift of the spirit.

This is just a manifestation of pride and carnality, to suggest that a human has the ability to grow and mature without the graces and help that were provided but the father and the son.

The apostle Paul knew how vital the gifts were this is why he said earnestly covet the greater gifts, and I wish you all spoke in tongues.

True biblical Christianity has never functioned without spiritual gifts, but dead liberal, or pharisaical, legalistic forms of Christianity hate the mention and expression of these gifts and always have.

Separating the holy spirit from his own gifts is folly and contradiction in the greatest terms.

Gary said: "The holy spirit functions mostly through the gifts of himself, to quench the gifts of the Spirit is to quench the spirit himself."


1Jo 4:1

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.


Of course you already knew this verse. And you know this one as well.

2Th 2:9

that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and false signs and wonders,

And you know this verse:

Act 16:16
It happened that as we were going to the place of prayer, a slave woman who had a spirit of divination met us, who was bringing great profit to her masters by fortune-telling.


And you know this one as well:

Matthew 24:24

“For false christs and false prophets will arise and will provide great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.

All those words of warning about the false giftings and signs are the words of the Spirit.


Gary, it is you who is quenching the Spirit's warnings to the churches and individuals to be careful to discern the false from the true and to test the spirits so that His people aren't deceived. We are to THEREAFTER, (after testing) then to cling to what is good and shun what is false. I am quite sure you know all this so I'm trying to understand your motives in calling the instruction for care by "testing" the same thing as "quenching". Not Biblical. It is the Spirit who gives discernment and the command to test the spirits so the quenching that is actually being advocated is yours. I ask that you exercise some discernment when others give Biblical answers and counsel to His people on being discerning.

There are many, many reputable charismatics and pentecostals who have publicly declared and urged their communities to do a much better job at and to be much more intentional, serious and spiritual about discernment of the false and true spirits. This is not an anti-gift issue but a protect the flock issue.

Lastly, the Holy Spirit in no uncertain Scriptural terms does not function "mostly through his gifts". That is the most myopic and dull understanding of the role and work of the Spirit in the world, in the church and in individual believers that I've heard in a long while. That is not merely wrong but spiritually damaging.


Quite revealing though.

_________________
Robert

If you read the letters of Paul you'll see clearly that the five fold ministry and other main ministries within the church all function through the gifts of the spirit and then when it comes to normal Christians exhorting, encouraging praying and practicing healing, being there for one another in those types of special needs this is all done through the ministering of the holy spirit the holy spirit is the minister of all the Grace's that come through the son.

Prophecy which is designed to build up an edify the body of Christ is a gift of the spirit the holy spirit functions through that gift, exhorting is another gift of the spirit and obviously the holy spirit functions through that gifting to encourage and build up, healing functions through the same type of gifting, teaching functions through the same gift of the holy spirit, evangelism and preaching for the saving of souls is manifested through a gift of the spirit and an anointing of the spirit and a Pacific manifestation of the same spirit, not to mention tongues or the words of knowledge or the words of wisdom and mercy which are all gifts of the holy spirit or manifestations of the holy spirit whatever way you want to express that.

The holy spirit was given as the comforter and the helper and the gifts of the holy spirit a part of who he is.

This is the prescribed and the way God operates through his church, when you take out the gifts of the holy spirit you've taken out the holy spirit and then everything is just done in the flesh you have dry Pharisaical religion and liberal dead Christianity and these are two of the main groups of people who function without the holy spirit You have nothing But dead religion and at worst you have religious demonic spirits operating through legalists and seductive spirits operating through liberal Christianity which is not Christianity in its essence demonic doctrines.

You're 100% right Robert I know those verses extremely well the Apostle Paul's teaching and letters are my favorite.

The Apostle Paul directly dealt with the idea of quenching the spirit and what he was dealing with directly was despising prophecy and forbidding tongues people having a low view and speaking against the gifts of the holy spirit and so whenever people speak against the gifts of the spirit for whatever need jerk reaction they may be experiencing because of their own hurts or for whatever other reason just hate for other Christians can be part of the reason what they're doing is quenching the holy spirit in their own life, and normally how that manifests itself is many of the gifts not operating in one's life and not experiencing any revival in their life.

I'm sorry if you felt that this was directed at you it wasn't directed at anyone it was just a general comment about speaking against the holy spirit, in the days of Christ it was the Pharisees and Sadducees that spoke against the gifts of the spirit or the manifestations of the spirit in the life of Christ.

In the early Christians experienced much the same and so when people take on the mantle of a pharisee or a Sadducees so to speak and attack what the holy spirit is doing and downplay the holy spirit and who he is and how he expresses himself through his children and through his church some people have more in common with them than they do biblical Christianity (speaking generally).

I don't think it's a dull understanding because biblically speaking the Apostle Paul said the preaching of the gospel was the way that people get born again and saved to begin with how shall they hear and unless someone preaches and how shall they preach unless they are sent and that is done through the gifting of the holy spirit and the anointing of the spirit that's on someone's life who's exercising the gift of preaching, I said mostly I'm not saying that he's only operates through that way because God is Sovereign and people can be born again and saved without the means of a person preaching but it's not the general way that God has prescribed the church to function, preaching and teaching, exhorting encouraging, prophesying speaking through the gifts of the word of wisdom and the gifts of the word of knowledge these are all prescribed by the holy spirit through the Apostle Paul as the way the church functions so like I said before it is mostly and it's the primary way that we all experience growth and learn and people that seem to lessen that prescribed way or rejected or downplay it is really speaking against the word of God and quenching the spirit in their own life and like I said before that's a manifestation of pride to think that you can have some inherent way of functioning without the gifts of the spirit through your own internal capacity.

Communicating in this forum with any words that have been spoken that are worth a grain of salt have been spoken through a gifting of the holy spirit whether it be exhortation or teaching or prophecy and the big problem is that when people speak through a gifting which we all do we forget that it's not a Grace or a capacity that we have as a human but it's a gifting and manifestation of the spirit and like the Apostle Paul said what do you have that you did not receive and if you have received that why do you boast as though you did not receive it, the apostle Paul said let him who speaks let him speak the oracles of God the intention that we would speak through the giftings constantly and use the holy spirit's anointing is a given by the Apostle Paul I pray that we remember that when we speak anything that's got any sort of wisdom or encouragement in it it's not us but it's the holy spirit speaking through us giving us the words to speak tho it be through a clay imperfect vessel. (Speaking generally)