Todd: Any time we label ourselves, the label has some baggage with it. I have said that I am a pentacostal, but not a charismatic. I guess label me what you will, but I come from a perspective of growing up among people who believe in the baptism of the Holy Spirit as an experience separate from salvation, and I still hold to that. I believe I can support it very solidly scripturally, and I have experienced it. I have seen God move in some pretty extraordinary and supernatural ways. I have seen most if not all of the gifts of the spirit listed in 1 Cor. 12. One interesting example that preceded me was my great grandfather who, knowing absolutely no Spanish, once preached a 30 minute sermon in Mexico, in Spanish, speaking in a language he did not know.

I say all that to say this. I believe the gifts of the Spirit and supernatural manifestations have never left the church since Pentecost. Yet I agree with what you said. These gifts are not normative in the daily life of a spirit filled believer. They happen by the will of God, when He chooses to work through them. No one will have, for example, a gift of healing and be able to operate in that gift any time they chose to do so. Yet, God may choose to use me in a gift of healing at some point, maybe today, or maybe in six months. It is up to Him.

What I see these men trafficking in is not the genuine, supernatural workings of the Holy Spirit. In the case of Bethel Redding, as chronicled in their book, "Experiencing the Heavenly Realms", it may very well be the supernatural operation of demonic, familiar spirits. Anyone wanting to know really should read that book. Pair it with "The Physics of Heaven", and you will quickly learn, from Bill Johnson and Bethel itself, that what is going on is not God.
PLEASE read these books carefully.

I grew up in Pentecost. I knew the old timers who knew Parham personally. He had some really odd ideas sometimes, and he was not a perfect man by any stretch of the imagination. What I see from this current movement bears little if any resemblance to what I grew up in, and the ministers I learned under would have loudly and soundly denounced this movement as unGodly.

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Travis

“I grew up in Pentecost. I knew the old timers who knew Parham personally. He had some really odd ideas sometimes, and he was not a perfect man by any stretch of the imagination. What I see from this current movement bears little if any resemblance to what I grew up in, and the ministers I learned under would have loudly and soundly denounced this movement as unGodly.“

Travis do you remember what I posted awhile back about Brother Parham and the false accusations that were made against him?

I also posted the truth about A.A. Allen’s death, but some on this forum wouldn’t accept it, because the believe everything that the heresy Hunter websites proclaim. Many false accusations have been made.

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Mike

I think that the problem is that some that call men false prophets are closet cessationists. They say that they believe in the Pentecostal experience, the gifts, and signs and wonders, but don’t believe that Jesus has appeared to many true prophets of God. I can send you a message by Walter Beutler. He had an encounter with the Lord, while spending time in prayer and fasting. Jesus actually walked into his room and stayed there for a good while, and when the Lord left, the devil walked into the room. You can access many of Walter Beutler’s teachings on Sermon Index.

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Mike

"I think that the problem is that some that call men false prophets are closet cessationists. They say that they believe in the Pentecostal experience, the gifts, and signs and wonders, but don’t believe that Jesus has appeared to many true prophets of God. I can send you a message by Walter Beutler. He had an encounter with the Lord, while spending time in prayer and fasting. Jesus actually walked into his room and stayed there for a good while, and when the Lord left, the devil walked into the room. You can access many of Walter Beutler’s teachings on Sermon Index."

I am, for all intents and purposes, done with this and most threads on the forum. But I was curious about this.

This is par for the course I've noticed - unless you believe, part and parcel, that men claiming these "Jesus walked into my room" experiences you are a "closet cessationist". I just find it very concerning that, as common as these experiences are claimed to be, they are practically absent in the New Testament. In fact, depending on how you look at the revealing of the revelation to John, the only one to have an experience like this is Paul. Peter had a dream, one time.

You would think the men alive today have a thing or two they could teach the men who actually walked with the Lord - or in James case, grew up with Jesus.

I am so absolutely wearied by this constant appeal to men and their experiences. The blindness this leads to is so glaringly evident to everyone but those who are deceived. As Paul wrote to Timothy, "deceiving AND being deceived".

There is absolutely no desire on this forum for truth, unity in Christ - no one cares enough about each other to ever step out of their own little comfortable box of experience and doctrine to even consider the fact they could possibly be wrong about anything.

The response to this post will be simply another pacification of conscience by telling me I'm a hypocrite and am unwilling to do the same, am arrogant, unyielding and stubborn. It's easy to justify our own error and sin by looking to the next guy and hoping his sin and error is worse than our own, and using that as the means to ignore the Holy Spirit and continue in our own deception.

Right on all accounts; I am stubborn, arrogant, proud, self willed. If you see it in me, that trust me, I've seen it in myself and the Lord saw it years ago. - but I answer to Jesus, and so do you. You won't give an account for the sin or error you thought you saw in me. But you can however use it as an excuse to continue in error, continue being deceived, and continue kicking against the pricks.

But at least I can stand in judgment and when the Lord asks me if I relayed His mind, words and truth to those people back when I was on that forum and there was so much deception running rampant, I can say I discharged that burden and did my duty.

I would offer this appeal - when 2 or more people are in agreement, and are in almost perfect unity concerning the error of a thing, it would behoove those that hold to the things perceived as error to at least honestly and critically think them through. But it seems that digging in your heels and literally dying on the hill of the error is the preferred method and strategy.

Brother Evan, I don’t doubt your sincerity in calling out false prophets and teachers, although I disagree with you concerning some of the men that you do consider to be as such, but we need to acknowledge that there are true apostles and prophets in the church and they here now. We might have a difference of opinion as to who they are. We just need some balance in these discussions. I don’t believe that these discussions have been fruitful at all, but have produced strife I know that I have repented of strife, which is a work of the flesh, that was in my own heart.

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Mike

Thanks for sharing, Travis.

I remember just before Covid came around that the Bethel Redding folks were boasting of their anointing, saying they were going to go to hospitals and heal the sick and raise the dead. Then the pandemic came and they all went into hiding. What a "missed opportunity." ;)

Eschaible, I had pretty much given up on this forum, but peeked in and liked much of what you were writing. It was a breath of fresh air. Time is precious, and I encourage everyone to not be on here overmuch, but occasionally.

ChrisA said:
"Eschaible, I had pretty much given up on this forum, but peeked in and liked much of what you were writing. It was a breath of fresh air. Time is precious, and I encourage everyone to not be on here overmuch, but occasionally."

As inconsistent as it seems (I've given up on trying to be consistent, Jesus tends to destroy that in me every time I try for it), I can't leave this forum and still be in obedience, no idea why. But like consistency, knowing what I'm doing or where I am going is also something that died long ago.

Anyway, I've neglected my original marching orders for being here by taking my responses to questions or opposition's and posting them as blog posts and what not, justifying it as my best articulations of truths I've been having revealed to me (the forbidden tree for example). But that's not why I was led to be here - at least the little I do know.

But I don't want to detract from what I said before, because the active members of this forum are all precious and must stand at the judgment seat of Christ - God grieves over the state of His people, and sadly, His people love to take advantage of His patience.

Chris said:

"Eschaible, I had pretty much given up on this forum, but peeked in and liked much of what you were writing. It was a breath of fresh air. Time is precious, and I encourage everyone to not be on here overmuch, but occasionally."

It is amazing because I pretty much said the same thing and then this morning. I prayed and asked the Lord to show me if I was to stay on the forum or not. I am open for correction, and I don’t have a problem at all changing my stance on my position, if the Lord shows me. Maybe this is about iron sharpening iron and this is a good thing if we can walk in love and stay out of strife.

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Mike

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Travis

The Truth About A. A. Allen’s Death

https://youtu.be/VgOuOq0Yafo?si=_ULlA-gdYNFO0pHj

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Mike