| Poster | Thread | ccchhhrrriiisss
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Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779
| | Re: | | Hi Fletcher,
Quote:
Ok so I have a few questions, and your writings seem to suggest a belief but am not clear on.
When in Romans 11 Paul wires that “all Israel will be saved”… are you saying that you believe that everyone who was born a Jew or in Israel will come to saving faith in Christ ?
If not how do they get saved?
What about the millions of Jews and Israelis that have died in their sins,… do they somehow get included in your view?
First off, I should point out that this isn't really anything that I covered in my posts. That is something of a digression into a different topic -- albeit linked to the one we are discussing here.
As Robert (yulboum) pointed out, I think that I made it clear that Jews must believe in Jesus to be saved. All of the messages preached by Jesus and the Apostles about salvation (up until Peter's vision of the sheet and meeting with the Roman centurion, Cornelius) were preached to the Jews -- the physical children of Israel. This includes the message of Acts 2.
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38 Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.
Acts 2:38-39 (ESV)
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This message was preached to the JEWS in JERUSALEM during the FEAST OF WEEKS (i.e., the DAY OF PENTECOST). It's clear in Scripture that Jews need Jesus -- and that God makes no distinction between Jews and Gentiles when it comes to salvation. When those of Israel believe in Christ Jesus, they are the "natural branches" that were broken off but are now grafted back into the vine (Romans 11:17-24).
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17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you.
19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare THE NATURAL BRANCHES, neither will he spare you.
22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.
23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.
24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.
Romans 11:17-24 (ESV)
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Now, as for the other question about what Paul means that "all Israel will be saved," I must again point that this is a different matter that is certainly linked with our discussion about the land.
The most plain and accurate answer that I can give is "I don't clearly know." This is because this is a topic that is much-debated. It often has certain eschatological and theological influences within the conclusions of people who discuss it too.
So, for me, I just haven't arrived to a clear conclusion that I can declare with absolutely certainty. This is the case even if I do have some ideas tied to Biblical prophecy. I don't want to be guilty of proclaiming something that is not entirely clear in Scripture. This is what many Bible teachers do in haste or zeal -- and I don't want to be counted among them. After all, this is a "mystery" (Romans 11:25).
I'm certainly aware of this mystery; and, it's not to say that I don't have opinions and views about how this might (potentially) come about. It does seem quite clear to me that this passage in Romans 11:26 (about all Israel being saved) is predicated upon Romans 11:25 -- a physical Israel that has a partial hardening "until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in."
In the context of Romans 11:25-27, Paul subsequently quotes several passages from the Old Testament -- Isaiah 59:20-21; Isaiah 27:9 and Jeremiah 31:33-34. It seems that the passage of Jeremiah is the one that continues to offer some additional context for when this will come about. Verses 31-32 of the chapter also mention this "new covenant." But, the passage continues:
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33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel AFTER THOSE DAYS, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”
Jeremiah 31:33-34 (ESV)
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Verse 33 mentions a time -- "after those days" (meaning "after" God has made the new covenant). This is put into context by verse 34 when it mentions that no one will teach his neighbor and his brother saying "know the LORD." This is because "they shall all know me -- from the least of them to the greatest" (verse 34).
This "least of them to the greatest" obviously draws some similarity to how the disciples argued who would (future tense) be the greatest in the Kingdom (e.g., Matthew 18:1-4; Luke 9:46-48; etc.). So, this seems to refer to a point in the "kingdom of God" AFTER the New Covenant that points to a time in which everyone will know the LORD.
If this was merely salvation and referring to the "Israel of God" based solely upon faith -- including both Jews and Gentiles -- then it would be a redundant statement. Why? Because faith is predicated upon "earnestly seeking" the Lord (Hebrews 11:6). So, believers know the Lord.
It seems to me like that passage from Jeremiah 31 that is quoted by Paul in Romans 11 in the context of all Israel being saved is referring to, well, physical Israel in the time when Christ returns and reigns. In fact, Jeremiah 31 continues to mention the context of a time when the unholy places where carcasses are thrown in the Kidron Valley (outside the gates of Jerusalem during the time of Jeremiah) will be "sacred to the LORD" and the city "shall not be plucked up or overthrown anymore forever" (Jeremiah 31:40 ESV).
So, the time in which all of Israel will be saved might actually be when all of Israel is saved by the Lord's return. In fact, Deuteronomy 30:1-5 does seem to offer something akin to this -- a future return of those scattered back into this land of promise.
Still, this part is all pondering. I don't know the timetable. In fact, I think that this is what Jesus said to the disciples who asked him about that timetable:
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6 So when they had come together, they asked him, “Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?”
7 He said to them, “IT IS NOT FOR YOU TO KNOW THE TIMES OR SEASONS that the Father HAS FIXED by his own authority.
Acts 1:6-7 (ESV)
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The Father has fixed the times and seasons for when he will "restore the kingdom TO ISRAEL." It's just wasn't for them to know either the "times" or the "seasons" that the Father has set.
As for those Jews who died in their sins: Like I said, all must repent and believe in Jesus to saved. Peter said this on the Day of Pentecost to the Jews.
How, then, did the godly children of Israel get saved? When, where and how? Jesus spoke a parable about Abraham and Lazarus in his bosom (Luke 16:19-31). How did he get there? That's a good question! Hebrews 11 offers some input about this -- and it came down to FAITH. It's how the covenant with Abraham began in the first place. Paul, James and the writer of Hebrews mention that "Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness" (Genesis 15:6; Galatians 3:6; Romans 4:1-3; James 2:23; Hebrews 6; etc.).
Of course, I don't know when, where or how. I do know that faith was the key -- and that there were children of Israel who did not enter the "promised land" because of unbelief. Hebrews 11 is filled with examples of faith in God in the Old Covenant.
I'm not sure if this answers your first question (because I don't have a definitive answer). I just have thoughts on that because of both Old and New Testament passages. Even under the Old Covenant, for any of "Israel" to be saved, they must have faith. Under this New Covenant, that faith is predicated upon believing in Christ Jesus.
_________________
Christopher
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|  2023/10/14 14:34 | Profile | ESchaible
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Joined: 2023/6/24
Posts: 548
| | Re: | | I think the bottom line that is so often lost when this topic is discussed is simply this:
The Jewish people are to whom belong the covenant that was extended to the gentiles when the Jews rejected their Messiah. This extension of the covenant to the gentile was for the sole purpose of provoking Jews to jealousy and ultimately save the people of Israel. This is the wisdom of God, that all things exist for Jesus, the Jewish Messiah.
The land will be restored by God Himself when Israel turns to Jesus in repentance and faith.
Judgment will fall again on Israel due to their rejection of the covenant, and the church is the avenue through which God will demonstrate His salvific power. The church is called to be "Christ in you", or incarnation as it were, to the Jew as they flee persecution and death during the time of Jacobs trouble, the time of great tribulation, hence the necessity of the Churches presence through that time.
When the time is fulfilled all remaining Jews will be saved and the land restored to them by God Himself, not military power of human self reliance and sufficiency.
All things point toward Jesus and His glory, and until the nation of Israel is humbled and calls out for mercy from Jesus in repentance and faith, the land will not be restored.
We must brace ourselves for the time where we, as the church, must demonstrate to the world system of principalities and powers that we are living in the kingdom of God now, presently, and this wisdom of Christ in us will provoke the Jew to jealousy and ultimately usher in the salvation of every living Jew as they cry out to Jesus in repentant faith and are saved.
The church, or better said, the community of believers in the Jewish Messiah, Jesus Christ, must be living in resurrection power that only comes through utter death to self, a lifestyle of bearing the cross with Jesus, in order to have a quality and authenticity of life that will provoke the Jew to jealousy.
A time is coming that will make the Holocaust look like a mere blip on the radar of history, and the church must be the authentic and resurrected beacon of light and hope for the fleeing Jew, who is supposed to be a beacon of hope and the light to a darkened world. In this way the Jew will become what he was chosen to be, a believer in Jesus and thereby the light of the world.
This is the brass tacks of the entire issue.
Quibbles over interpretation and definition is just another distraction from the actual issues, the issues of covenant and promise, the issues of Jesus Christ.
And with that said, I will bow out of this discussion as the Holy Spirit will make plain everything in due time to those that seek Him. May the Father receive glory through Jesus the Son, by the Holy Spirit - and may this triunity be manifest in the church for the glory of God to the provocation of Israel that they may be saved.
God help us if we fail here.
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| | 2023/10/14 16:48 | Profile | JFW
Member
Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 2009
Dothan, Alabama
| | Re: RY & Chris - Thank you | | The honesty and humility in the responses is refreshing and encouraging 🙏🏻
May we all walk worthy of the gospel by which we were called ✝️
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Fletcher
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| | 2023/10/14 20:49 | Profile | caleb4life
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Posts: 100
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| | Re: | | Quote:
The honesty and humility in the responses is refreshing and encouraging
I agree with brother Fletcher. Also a sobering exhortation from brother eschaible that really gets to the heart of the matter as well and resonated with me at a deep level.
Fletcher, I’m still pondering your response to my inquiry about the use of deadly force in the NT, and appreciate your reply and thoughts on the matter. I may have further questions, but would likely open a new thread, if I’m at peace to do so.
Love all of you saints dearly! ❤️
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Caleb
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| | 2023/10/14 21:03 | Profile | JFW
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Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 2009
Dothan, Alabama
| | Re: ES | | Tho the words would naturally be different, I tend to share a similar perspective in that this is a critical time for the body of Christ with many pitfalls, indeed the way is narrow and the gate straight. We’ve been preoccupied and distracted for far too long and in many ways are off pace and out of position, not clinging to the head which is Christ.
I do honestly believe that Israel is being set up as it were, wether from within or from without and that will be revealed in its time, tho in either case we are to boldly share the gospel of Jesus Christ,… Christ and Him crucified is Gods answer to all of this ✝️
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Fletcher
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| | 2023/10/14 21:31 | Profile | JFW
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Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 2009
Dothan, Alabama
| | Re: Caleb | | Ha! I thought you might ;)
I’ll be as forthcoming as I am able 🙏🏻
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Fletcher
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| | 2023/10/14 21:34 | Profile | yuehan
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Joined: 2011/6/15
Posts: 562
| | Re: | | Hey Chris,
(apologies for skimping on the spelling)
I liked your emphasis on the distinction between "spiritual Israel (Gal 6:16) and "physical Israel" (1 Cor 10:18), while at the same time wrestling with their respective roles in end times prophecy.
I'm interested in further discussing your views, but this thread has been progressing too fast for me to keep up.
I think it'd be cool if we could discuss this over e-mail - you good with that? Do you still go by your old Yahoo! e-mail address?
John
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| | 2023/10/15 1:26 | Profile | docs
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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2753
| | Re: | | Thank you ESchaible.
/When the time is fulfilled all remaining Jews will be saved and the land restored to them by God Himself, not military power of human self reliance and sufficiency.
All things point toward Jesus and His glory, and until the nation of Israel is humbled and calls out for mercy from Jesus in repentance and faith, the land will not be restored./
Yes. No one with our view is saying otherwise even though many think, even though the evidence is there we are not, we are trying to present the present secular state as something approaching the final fulfillment or that simply because Israel has reappeared it is presently a manifestation of the kingdom of God. The church has a witnessing and assisting role to play as it stands with Israel and the Jewish people in their coming time of trouble. This latter-day "controversy of Zion" is not going away and will grow in scope and intensity even beyond its present intensity. Jerusalem and who is its rightful owner and the land will be the epicenter of the storm as it eventually will threaten world peace. Issues of the faith once winked at or lightly considered will be purposefully put on the front burner again by the Lord. Decisions will be required over proper interpretation of prophecy and how one is to treat the Jewish people even in their backslidden state. Many theologies teach God is through with Israel, but I don't believe this is so in regard to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. I pray the watchmen on the wall will not cease crying out.
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David Winter
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| | 2023/10/15 9:25 | Profile | ccchhhrrriiisss
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Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779
| | Re: | | Hi John,
Quote:
I think it'd be cool if we could discuss this over e-mail - you good with that? Do you still go by your old Yahoo! e-mail address?
Sounds great! However, I use a different email (the same name but at live.com).
_________________
Christopher
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| | 2023/10/15 20:13 | Profile | narrowpath
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Posts: 1522
Germany NRW
| | Re: Netanyahu Tells Israel 'We Are at War' After Unprecedented Hamas Attac | | Ok, many clever posts. Let's pray. |
| | 2023/10/16 7:23 | Profile |
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