Poster | Thread | deogloria Member

Joined: 2020/2/12 Posts: 393
| Re: | | The good news: it is still not too late to seek and maintain "pure and undivided devotion to Christ."
In Christ alone my hope is found
Markus edit: deleted most of my post |
| 2023/10/13 11:33 | Profile | ccchhhrrriiisss Member

Joined: 2003/11/23 Posts: 4779
| Re: | | Hi Markus,
Quote:
When the serpent in the Garden of Eden started to twist the Word of God it had huge consequences for humanity. The same is true today. I see so many Scriptures not properly interpreted or twisted, with huge consequences.
"Yet, from a Biblical perspective, this land was PROMISED to the seed of Abraham and his seed" This is quite accurate, but here is a complete verse: "And now that you belong to Christ, you are the true children of Abraham. You are his heirs, and God’s promise to Abraham belongs to you.(Gal 3:29) The promise that God made to Abraham belongs to anyone who is in Christ. Not to Jews or Greeks or Gentiles. Those days are gone by the time we receive the promise.
Since you quoted my comment, I am assuming that this was directed at that comment. To be clear: I wasn't quoting a verse (Galatians 3 or any other verse) when I wrote that. I certainly wasn't "twisting Scripture" either. I simply added a statement there. Moreover, I was speaking about the promised LAND. The passage in Galatians refers to freedom from the LAW. It doesn't refer directly to the Promised LAND. This is (at least in rhetoric) what the current conflict is (supposedly) based upon.
That land holds an exceptionally important part of Biblical prophecy. This specifically includes the people and instance for which Paul said was a "mystery" -- the Israel who will be saved in one day after the "fullness of the Gentiles has come in" (Romans 11:25). While God has "granted repentance that leads to life" to both Gentiles and Jews (Acts 11:18) -- making no distinction between them (as in Acts 11:12), this is not to say that there is no distinction in terms of calling and election or how they pertain to eschatology.
This seems to be much of what Paul refers to in Romans 11:25-32). It may also refer to why Jesus, after he had resurrected and appeared to his disciples for 40 days, told them that they would be his witnesses "in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth" (Acts 1:8). Even here, our Lord made the distinction between Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria and the rest of the world.
The disciples may have taken this as a quite literal command in that they began in Jerusalem and remained there despite many of them being from Galilee. That is why I pointed out that Peter's meeting with Cornelius (after his vision of the sheet from Heaven) didn't happen until around EIGHT YEARS after the Day of Pentecost. In fact, Peter and the others seemed quite surprised that Gentiles were "granted repentance that leads to life" (Acts 11:18).
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Most importantly: Since he did not spare even his own Son but gave him up for us all, won’t he also give us everything else? (Rom 8:32) If we always talk about the land then we have not understood the Gospel properly.What a tragedy.
I think that this is the wrong type of conclusion to make. It's possible to "understand the Gospel properly" while also understanding that the current conflict in Israel is centered on LAND -- and that this land was promised to Abraham's and his descendants (e.g., Genesis 12:7; Exodus 3:8; Exodus 6:8; Exodus 20:12; Deuteronomy 8:7; Joshua 1:11; Judges 2:1; etc.). Even the commandment to "honor your father and mother" is given the additional admonition "...that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you" (Exodus 20:12).
Obviously (and I stress that this should be OBVIOUS), our focus as believers is not over mere land or real estate. Rather, our promise is in our Lord -- the now-and-future king of that land. It's where the Lord will return. It's where he will rule and reign from. There are many prophecies in the Old Testament about Jerusalem that are yet to be fulfilled and will not be until the Lord returns.
It's where we will also be. And, as part of that "seed" -- and Paul stressed how "singular" that was because it referred to Christ (Galatians 3:15-16). In fact, Peter pointed out that we are not born again of perishable seed (and he was writing to the Jews) but of "imperishable seed" (I Peter 1:21-25). As we are grafted into this vine by faith, we are fellow heirs with Christ of this promise (Romans 8:17). _________________ Christopher
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| 2023/10/13 12:32 | Profile | AbideinHim Member

Joined: 2006/11/26 Posts: 5185 Louisiana
| Re: | |
Hi Chris! I agree with you and with your Biblical perspective concerning Israel.
We need to agree with scripture, not man’s opinions without being scriptural.
Israel At War: Understanding the Bigger Picture:
https://youtu.be/YapOE-6k7j0?si=KcGsi-gcRkZj0d89
_________________ Mike
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| 2023/10/13 13:12 | Profile | ESchaible Member

Joined: 2023/6/24 Posts: 548
| Re: | | Chris,
I don't disagree with much that you said, but since your longer post was directed at me, I will need some time to address it.
I will say that the entire premise is off in that you make a sacred and secular dichotomy. I would like to see a scriptural basis for separating sacred and secular not only in this context, but ever. I am a firm believer that everything is sacred, that all things fall under the jurisdiction of Jesus, and nothing escapes His rule, eyes or judgment.
I think to make that separation in general is grievous error, but especially in this context, it guts the entire prophetic and apostolic nature of the faith.
Could the crux of this entire issue be our views of God Himself, and not interpretation? Like Doc said earlier, just musing.
AbideInHim, The irony of your appeal to discount mans ideas and than your posting of a YouTube video is not lost on me, well played.
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| 2023/10/13 13:22 | Profile | deogloria Member

Joined: 2020/2/12 Posts: 393
| Re: | | Chris Thank you for your comments and clarifications. I still decided to delete most of my last post and leave this thread. My devotion to Christ is more important at the moment.
Occasionally I pray for some of you
Blessings to all
Markus |
| 2023/10/13 13:54 | Profile | JFW Member

Joined: 2011/10/21 Posts: 2009 Dothan, Alabama
| Re: Chris | | I concur with your point of the land being a separate issue from the law,… however have not both been supplanted by Christ Jesus and the Kingdom of God?
Were not those promises of land fulfilled by God, and did not Israel inherit and prosper in the promised land ? And was it not in this very land that messiah came, was rejected and murdered?
Which begs the question, where in the NT is there a promise to non-believing Jewish peoples to have control over this land ?
What I find the scriptures to plainly state is that this land will be the forever home of the Kingdom of God, where God Himself will be the light therein. Where therein - not a ethnocentric military state 🤷🏽♂️
The fact that Jesus returns physically to this land is in no way predicated on a particular group being in control of it,… it’s not like He needs their permission as Jesus is Lord of all.
What puzzles me is how we (western church) are quick to depart from our NT faith and return to an OT disposition when two of the 3 Abrahamic faiths are fighting for supremacy in the region all while both flatly denying the savior of the very God they claim to serve/worship🧐 To say it another way, why are we surprised when unsaved, unregenerate people act like, wait for t…. Unsaved, unregenerate people… what did we think they would do,… be good Christians ??? Yet it’s as if we all become more likely to identify with Israel than with Jesus !? This is a grave error that will cost far more than most seem to understand… Jesus and Paul and Peter and John and Stephen would all be in constant conflict with the very people most Christians clamor to be accepted by …. make it make sense 🤷🏽♂️
FTR I have several close Jewish Israeli friends in Israel presently and as a Christian I don’t want to see anything bad happen to the people of Israel or Jews in genera, like all Christians, I want them to come to repentance and faith in Jesus of Nazareth, their messiah🙏🏻 Having said this, as a Christian, where can we find a NT biblical standing for murdering innocent life, even (or especially) by the people of Israel ? Yes there is a NT biblical standing for protecting women and children, even with deadly force from my understanding, but not an emotionally charged blood lust or a wholesale dehumanization of millions of people -
_________________ Fletcher
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| 2023/10/13 14:28 | Profile | caleb4life Member

Joined: 2023/6/26 Posts: 100 Minnesota
| Re: | | Quote:
Yes there is a NT biblical standing for protecting women and children, even with deadly force
Where do you see this in the NT, dear brother Fletcher? _________________ Caleb
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| 2023/10/13 15:03 | Profile | ESchaible Member

Joined: 2023/6/24 Posts: 548
| Re: | | Caleb4life,
It's is very interesting how this topic brings so much to light, and how the Lord will use it to reveal so much about our professions of faith. I pray that which is revealed is acted upon in repentance and a new and authentic alignment with Jesus Himself.
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| 2023/10/13 16:16 | Profile | yulboum Member

Joined: 2021/11/14 Posts: 82 Toronto
| Re: | | Hi Fletcher,
I would like to encourage you to read the OT. The Word of God is flawless and is forever. HIS word is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. The apostles of Jesus Christ are Jews and they wrote the NT. Also, what the apostles wrote is not really 'new' they wrote the same things that the prophets wrote in the OT. To sum it up, it is all about Jesus Christ from Genesis to Revelation.
Hi Eschaible,
I don't condone murder and I forgive you for your accusations.
God bless you and give you peace.
_________________ Yulboum Robert
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| 2023/10/13 19:14 | Profile | ccchhhrrriiisss Member

Joined: 2003/11/23 Posts: 4779
| Re: | | Hi ESchaible,
Quote:
I will say that the entire premise is off in that you make a sacred and secular dichotomy. I would like to see a scriptural basis for separating sacred and secular not only in this context, but ever. I am a firm believer that everything is sacred, that all things fall under the jurisdiction of Jesus, and nothing escapes His rule, eyes or judgment.
I wouldn't quite say that there is necessarily a "dichotomy" between the sacred and secular. I do think that we (as believers) do tend to see things in a sort of either-or lens. I feel that a nation can be BOTH a secular nation and one used to bring about a greater spiritual purpose. Consider the Assyrians, Babylonians, Medes-Persians, Greeks, etc. They were secular empires who were used for spiritual purposes. The same can be said of a person being both a King of Israel and a prophet (i.e., "Is Saul also among the prophets?" in I Samuel 10:11).
In the sense of "Israel:" It can be both the people and the land. After all, the covenant brought about two things for the "seed" of Abraham -- the number of the descendants AND the land what was given to them.
The current conflict in the Middle East is (supposedly) a fight over the LAND. There is obviously something much deeper there -- especially since we know that we will eventually culminate with what we read about in Old and New Testament prophecies regarding Israel and Jerusalem.
To be clear: The Old Testament makes it quite clear that this land is the land given by promise. The New Testament makes it clear that this promise is contingent upon faith. This is why that commandment about "honor your father and mother" is so interesting -- because there is a contingency about how long God's chosen will dwell in the land of that promise. It's not a promise about enjoying a "long life" but living long in that land that God is GIVING us.
Our Lord will return and reign on this earth from that promised land. Consequently, it's no wonder that the physical "Israel" to whom it was promised would be in conflict with the people and groups who really have no promise whatsoever (either physically or spiritually). _________________ Christopher
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| 2023/10/13 19:39 | Profile |
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