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Discussion Forum : Articles and Sermons : The Church Will Face Tribulation by Zac Poonen

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staff
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Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 2227


 Re:

Hi Docs,
Never assume ,Matthew 27 shows a ressurection before that ressurrection of Daniel and also the two witnesses are resurrected before the timeline you are going with.

"It seems safe to assume that all other Old Testament saints, prophets etc. will rise in this resurrection."


Matt 27 :51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[e] went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

urs staff

 2023/9/14 4:36Profile
staff
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Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 2227


 Re:

Hi All,
As it was in the days of Noah,as it was in the days of Lot UNTIL THE DAY!

Q When does judgement come?
A When the good guys are taken out.

Q When does that happen?
A The exact day that the good guys are taken out

Q Who said this ?
A Jesus

Q What were the conditions like before Judgement?
A They were eating,drinking,building ,Marrying (not in Sodom)
sowing,reaping etc

Q Would they be eating ,drinking etc by the end of THE GREAT TRIBULATION?

A NO

Q Is The Great Tribulation Great?
A The worst time ever on Earth

urs staff

 2023/9/14 4:46Profile
docs
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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2753


 Re:

Many holy people were raised as a first-fruits sign of surety of a coming resurrection in Matthew 27 and the two witnesses will be raised. However, this raising hardly included the main body and bulk of Old Testament saints. The vast majority still remain unraised as do the vast majority of those who have believed in Christ up until that time and over the ages. When will all these be raised and glorified?

When will Daniel's resurrection occur according to Daniel 12:13? Paul said we will be raised and changed at the last trumpet. So, the pre-trib predicament is, how can believers be raised and changed at the last trumpet at a pre-trib rapture if seven or so years later there is another last trumpet to sound at which believers will be raised and glorified? (Matt 24:31)? Restated, how can there be a trumpet sound at a pre-trib rapture and be called the "last" trumpet, supposedly at which all all believers are raised and changed, and there be another last trumpet sound at Christ's coming at the end of the age, the end of days, when Daniel and others will be raised and changed? How many last trumpets can there be? How many does Scripture present?

The Dilemma:

1) Pre-trib rapture - a trumpet sounds (assuming to be the last trumpet) and saints are raised and glorified.

2) End of the age - a trumpet sounds (assuming to be the last trumpet) at the coming of Christ and is when Daniel and others are raised and glorified - at the end of the days.

There can't be more than one last trumpet signaling resurrection and glorification. Therefore, if saints past and present, Old and New Testament are to be raised and glorified at the last trumpet (I Cor 15:52), then the pre-trib view finds itself advocating an unsolvable contradiction.


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David Winter

 2023/9/14 6:40Profile
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Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 2227


 Re:

Hi Docs
My answer to that is dont ignore my posts when they dont fit into ur timeline.The Post-trib view finds itself advocating an unsolvable contradiction in this case.
For instance:

Hi All,
As it was in the days of Noah,as it was in the days of Lot UNTIL THE DAY!

Q When does judgement come?
A When the good guys are taken out.

Q When does that happen?
A The exact day that the good guys are taken out

Q Who said this ?
A Jesus

Q What were the conditions like before Judgement?
A They were eating,drinking,building ,Marrying (not in Sodom)
sowing,reaping etc

Q Would they be eating ,drinking etc by the end of THE GREAT TRIBULATION?

A NO

Q Is The Great Tribulation Great?
A The worst time ever on Earth

urs staff

 2023/9/14 8:49Profile
staff
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Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 2227


 Re:

Hi Docs,
Nonetheless your points are good,logical and need an answer.
The simpliest answer is they were different trumpets.
Their is a series of trumpets in Revelation and Paul was gone by the time these trumpets were revealed to John on Patmos.
The pre trib view of the last trump was that it represented the last trump of one of the feasts,the feast of trumpets,
urs staff

 2023/9/14 9:04Profile
docs
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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2753


 Re:

You got me thinking and wondering, where does it say all normal activity of any kind will end during the tribulation? Even at the end of the tribulation? It surely will not be a normal time and will be horrific, but where does it say at least some normal physical things will not be going on.

"As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left."

What will the two men in the field be doing? Why are two women grinding with a hand mill? The two men in the field and the two women grinding at the mill seem to be at least trying to carry on normal agricultural activity. Will everyone quit eating and drinking during the tribulation? Why the parable mentioning food in due season? "Therefore you also be ready for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doin.?"

The AC will turn his wrath on Israel and those of the church who assist Israel and keep the commandments of Jesus. Much will be going on. Armies will be on the move, eating and drinking I suppose as they go. Many people were married during WW II.

Economic Babylon will have continued its activity and many commercial activities during this time before it is judged at the end in one day (Rev 18).

It doesn't seem that all normal activity will cease during the tribulation though things will be vastly different. Thus so, because many things will continue it will be as the days of Noah when many things continued as before. Because many things will continue, I don't think it automatically implies the church will be gone.


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David Winter

 2023/9/14 10:18Profile
Lysa
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Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3699
East TN for now!

 Re:

Quote:
I challenge you to listen to the first 2/3 minutes of this Zac Poonen video on the Tribulation and almost everything he says is hearsay or experential

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbeUHdqBoWE

1 Evangelical Christians differ on this issue =correct
This is true
2 Jesus Christ comes secretly = incorrect
Zac introduces "secretly" himself as a debating point.
The pretribulation rapture is not secret.
Zac clearly doesnt understand the end times
3 He bases his theology of the end on "experential doctrine"not the bible.
The first reason he says that the rapture is not pre trib is because they dont believe it in countries that are experiencing persecution.He then gives the tried and tested Corrie Ten Boon doesnt believe it.He does not qoute scripture at the start as his base arguement but experience
4
I found out that the teaching of a pre trib rapture was introduce 150years ago he says.Again not relying on scripture for an arguement but on hearsay.Even if it were true it does not make it incorrect.It has to be argued by scripture not history.
5
He searched the scriptures and he could not find one verse
Zac is relying on his reputation to convince his audience rather than scripture ."I studied if for 50 years"


These false arguements have been echoed over and over again on SI.

Firstly the rapture being secret is based on a mis understanding of "twinkling of an eye" passage
Secondly the debate has to have a foundation of scripture not experience
Thirdly their is clearly a passage in the new testament showing that Christ comes before the Tribulation and after the Tribulation "as it were in the days of Noah" and "As it were in the days of lot"
Fourthly
Zac clearly doesnt understand prophetic pattern
Just listen to 3 mins,



#1 Evangelical Christians differ on this issue = (Lisa – True)

#2 Jesus Christ comes secretly = (Lisa - again, he is agreeing with you that it is NOT secret)
- Verbatim: …Evangelical Christians have differences of opinion AND THAT is concerning whether Jesus Christ will come secretly for the church before the 7 years period of great tribulation and THEN come publicly to the earth… (He is not introducing a secret rapture)
-
#3 He bases his theology of the end on "experiential doctrine” not the bible.
The first reason he says that the rapture is not pre trib is because they dont believe it in countries that are experiencing persecution. He then gives the tried and tested Corrie Ten Boon doesnt believe it.He does not qoute scripture at the start as his base arguement but experience
(India – 1. His country is experiencing persecution against Christians by Radical Hindu’s and 2. It was Corrie Ten Boom’s experience and it was true.)

#4 I found out that the teaching of a pre trib rapture was introduce 150years ago he says. Again not relying on scripture for an arguement but on hearsay.Even if it were true it does not make it incorrect.It has to be argued by scripture not history. (Lisa here, are we not allowed anywhere in our sermon to interject our personal testimony? Not anywhere of how “WE” came to our conclusions?)

5 He searched the scriptures and he could not find one verse. Zac is relying on his reputation to convince his audience rather than scripture. “I studied if for 50 years"
(Staff, do you have “ONE” scripture that supports the pre-trib doctrine? That is all he is saying, he has studied it for 50 years and he has not found “ONE” scripture that supports it.

And right at the 3:02 mark, he talks about John 16:33. He is talking about scripture. Perhaps, you should listen to the whole sermon. ;)

God bless you,
Lisa


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Lisa

 2023/9/14 13:47Profile
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
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 Re:

//You got me thinking and wondering, where does it say all normal activity of any kind will end during the tribulation?//

I have always seen Staff’s point on this. Jesus seems to be saying that everything was normal when the flood hit. In making the comparison he is saying things will be normal when the Son of man returns.

He is not saying a few things will be normal during incredibly abnormal times. He is saying the time itself will be normal.

That being said, I disagree with Staff’s application but his argument is sound.


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Todd

 2023/9/14 14:29Profile
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Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3699
East TN for now!

 Re:

by TMK on 2023/9/14 14:29:37

//You got me thinking and wondering, where does it say all normal activity of any kind will end during the tribulation?//

I have always seen Staff’s point on this. Jesus seems to be saying that everything was normal when the flood hit. In making the comparison he is saying things will be normal when the Son of man returns.

He is not saying a few things will be normal during incredibly abnormal times. He is saying the time itself will be normal.
---------------------------------

I definitely agree with you and Staff on this too. All these crazy pre-trib apocalyptic movies (and post-trib apocalyptic), imho are way off. We will be eating, drinking and giving in marriage; and be having the four seasons as far as I can tell from the Scriptures. We all have our own nuances of what the end times will be, no one is right.

Then He will appear in the blink of an eye!!

Maranatha!!


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Lisa

 2023/9/14 14:59Profile
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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2753


 Re:

It would seem to mean that, just as in the days of Noah, so it will be at the time of the coming of the Son of man. In Noah's day, things were proceeding along normally until the flood came upon an unexpecting world. Before the final time of judgment and tribulation and Christ's coming, the unexpecting world will be doing just as it always has - eating, drinking, giving in marriage etc. In the midst of this "peace and safety," sudden destruction will come upon an unprepared and unsuspecting world. Just as in the days of Noah. Things will not be normal during the tribulation. They will be normal in many ways in the time leading up the beginning of final judgments and tribulation and maybe even a bit into the beginning phases of the tribulation. It is not likely it means or implies the world will be going along as usual when a pre-trib rapture occurs.

Meanwhile, If the church is resurrected and raised at the last trumpet 7 years or so before the second coming, at which trumpet are the dead raised and glorified at the actual second coming? The change in the bodies of believers that takes place has to occur at the last trumpet - I Cor 15:52. So, is the trumpet that is supposed to sound 7 years or so before the second coming the last trumpet, or is the trumpet that sounds at the second coming the last trumpet?


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David Winter

 2023/9/14 15:19Profile





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