Hi David (docs),

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Christopher

There are:

7 seals judgement(Revelation 6:1–17; 8:1–5),
7 trumpets judgement (Revelation 8:6–9:21; 11:15–19), and
7 seven bowls judgement (Revelation 16:1–21) during great tribulation.

To Jacob it is said,  "Alas! That day is so great there is none like it; it is a time of distress for Jacob; yet he shall be saved out of it "(Jer 30:7).

“At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book" (Daniel 12:1). 

Matthew 24:21: For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

It is a time of great purification of Jacob, he will be purified through sweeping pain and violence, till finally the great revelation of their savior.

To the church of Philadelphia it is said,"Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth" (Rev 3:10).

To the rest of the earth, " For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" (Rev 6:17).

It seems clear from history that there was undoubtedly a first century fulfilment of the end of the age, even Paul said this generation was the generation to whom the ends of the ages had come.

Which was the end of the old covenant age and the beginning of the kingdom age the age of the spirit. And through out around the time of the Dark ages there also seems to be a type in a fulfilment in a spiritual application of a time of great tribulation and apostasy and the ruling of a beast system and an Antichrist figure that was current in every single generation.

I think the reformers we're on to something when they said the papal system with the pope being the Antichrist was a current reality. The principalities that where behind the Roman Empire of Nero and others continued under the papal rule, and darkness covered the Earth and deep darkness covered the people but the light of the glory of the Lord has begin to rise on his people the church again.


The age of famines wars pestilence that would continually wipe out much of the known world, with revival and the baptism of the holy spirit being suppressed for 1000 years of deep judgement upon the world where true blessing and liberty of the gospel was practically nonexistent.

Under the new covenant in the age of the spirit being that we are in the millennial reign now, the power of that PAPAL system was broken AND DAMAGED BY THE LATTER RAIN OUTPOURING OF THE Spirit and the Protestant reformation.

Jesus working his yeast and his salt and his light through the world by the church of the spirit and the proclamation of the gospel will eventually put many of the enemies under the footstool of Christ and under the feet of the church for the church is the body of Christ on the earth.


The post millennial visions of Jonathan Edwards and others was the very Powerhouse of the first and second great awakenings and we saw what the power of Jesus can do in the age of the spirit. And the final apostasy will be different in the millennial age it will be the battle of gog and magog, and will be focused around the Middle East around the chosen Jewish nation, they been gathered and are being back into their own land and will never be uprooted again. As the apostle Paul said they will be grafted back in to the spiritual Israel in this last great awakening which will bring Unity to The gentiles and the Jews. I recall John Wesley believing that the papasea will be weakened to such a point that the church would even go through revival and awakening.


He foresaw the great charismatic movement beginning even in that church with over 200 million claiming baptism of the spirit today and of the increase of Christ government there shall be no end it shall according to scripture be increasing and increasing with true revival and awakening. Until Christ comes back and the great white throne judgement and the defeating of death and the handing over the kingdom to the father takes place with the resurrection of the just and the unjust.

The Gates of hell shall not prevail against the church but the church shall prevail against the gates, the defence system of hell on this earth which has been taking place gradually since the reformation and the outpourings of the spirit and this will continue even amidst tribulation for in this world you will have tribulation.

But God has made a judgement in favour off his saints and they will be lights to the world and the salt of the Earth and shall go out and preserve the world for it shall be Jesus working through his saints as yeast through the dough.

, Matt 13 32. Although it is the smallest of all seeds, yet it grows into the largest of garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and nest in its branches.” 33He told them still another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like leaven that a woman took and mixed into three measures of flour, until all of it was leavened.” 34Jesus spoke all these things to the crowds in parables. He did not tell them anything without using a parable.

/First of all, I would respond regarding clarity: Our Lord was VERY clear. He spoke precisely what he needed to. However, like the apostles and the parables that he spoke, they weren't understood by all at that time. This is because it wasn't really the right time for them to understand it./

Laboring my point, that is exactly the phenomenon I am speaking of when it comes to eschatology. The scenario goes that Jesus decribed precisely when He would come again and what events would occur at that point, but it wasn't the right time for them to understand it! Then why did He explain it so clear that a child can understand it? Where does such reasoning come from? It certainly doesn't come from Jesus or the Scriptures. I still say there seems to be an unwritten unspoken rule that when it comes to eschatology and the last things one should veer away from God intended simplicity and see how complicated it can be made. Eschatology is the only field of Bible study treated in such a manner.

/In fact, the specific point that you wrote is not one of the things that many believers tend to debate: Those who do and do not believe in a "rapture" (or those who prefer to refer to it as a "catching away," "gathering," etc.) believe that many of the eschatological events spoken by the Lord regarding a final "great" tribulation will be followed by the Lord's coming again./

Can you cite any examples where Jesus spoke specifically of this "catching away" of His bride before He comes again? Where did He refer to it? Also, Jesus referred us to the book of Daniel to help us understand the event that sets off the final age-ending tribulation (Matthew 24:15) and Daniel refers specifically to the final time of trouble (Daniel 12:1). Can any reference examples to this catching away of the saints before the final time of trouble and the second coming be cited? What did Jesus and Daniel have to say on the matter? Which of their words can one be pointed to?

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David Winter

Zechariah 14
2 Thessalonians 1-2

Both of these scriptures speak on the matter, albeit highlighting different aspects, (and from my reading) neither of which seem to suggest the righteous will be absent from the scene, rather in both cases they appear to be protected/preserved by their obedience to His word/love of the truth -

Zechariah is interesting in that it provides a clear picture of the locations and events, which match the prophecy the angels gave concerning Christs’ (physical location) return.

Paul in 2 Thess is obviously more concerned with the timeline so as to buttress the faith of the church against the inevitable deception that comes from not “receiving a love of the truth”-

though both do refer to a “gathering together” they are different people groups- Paul to our gathering together with Christ at His return. Zech referring to the Father “gathering together” nations upon Jerusalem (specifically).

An easy argument could be made for Jerusalem being the actual bride as she is espoused as “coming down” in Rev 21:2
That means she was “in” God/heaven and at some previous point was secured there-

There is much to mine out in Paul’s timeline, as it is presented in the context of equipping the church with understanding so as not to be led astray. That in itself (for me) requires a high value allocation regarding the timeline- tho perhaps even more interesting is the fact that this information was needed this early on in the church… that means there was confusion about the timeline that required Paul to personally/formally provide remedy. Since this is true, we can deduce that the enemy was already at work attempting to muddy the water as it were and in fact Paul makes specific reference to this fact as his predicate in writing to them in this epistle. 2 Thess 1-2
A further indication is in the 1st chapter of 2 Thess where Paul is seeking to confirm and comfort them “in their tribulations” and at no point ventures away from that understanding as he segues into our “gathering together” with Jesus at His return in chapter 2 -

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Fletcher

Guys please read the scripture below -


Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God 2 Thess 2 1-4

The coming of Christ and us being gathered to him does not happen until the man of lawlessness is revealed.

Let no man decieve you in any way - is the warning in the scripture we just read.

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Colin Murray

Matthew 24:2 - But He responded and said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down.”
(Mar 13:3–13; Luk 21:7–19 )

Matthew 24:3 - And as He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

I know this must not be a unique approach, but maybe it’s new to some. Is it possible that the disciples ( in their ignorance ) thought they were asking one question when it was in fact 2 or 3 questions. So, Jesus answers with three different responses in the balance of the passage. This certainly would explain the judgment of 70 AD and the final judgment to come.

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Robert

Matthew 24:2 - But He responded and said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down.”
(Mar 13:3–13; Luk 21:7–19 )

Matthew 24:3 - And as He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

I know this must not be a unique approach, but maybe it’s new to some. Is it possible that the disciples ( in their ignorance ) thought they were asking one question when it was in fact 2 or 3 questions. So, Jesus answers with three different responses in the balance of the passage. This certainly would explain the judgment of 70 AD and the final judgment to come.

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Robert

I too believe that persecution will come soon. I hope we are ready to defend our faith in Christ Jesus.
Thanks brother Greg for this post, so that we can be ready when it happens.

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Yulboum Robert

Hi Yulboum,
What does ready mean to you?Is it just ready to defend our faith?or is there something more?,yours staff