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Lisa

Hi Lysa,
Its just that you commented on The Great Tribulation after reading the Zac Poonen sermon,so you must have thought they were linked to each other,urs staff

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Lisa

Hi Lysa,

Thank you for the links. I think that I have watched some of these videos before -- among many others that don't believe in a pre-trib "catching away." I'll look over them -- although some of the titles are a bit perplexing (i.e., "false claims").

This is why I mentioned people who are "dogmatic" about certain issues that aren't absolutely clear from Scripture. I appreciate it when people aren't willing to declare something to be "incontrovertibly true" if they aren't entirely (i.e., 100%) certain themselves.

I've interacted with people who have gone from being pre-trib to post-trib. I've interacted with people who have gone the other way (from post to pre). I've sometimes been surprised when such individuals are exceptionally dogmatic about such topics -- particularly as if they forgot their own journey from one view to another.

If the Scriptures were undeniably clear about the entire timeline of the Lord's return, then I would joyfully accept it with all grace. However, I've studied this over and over again -- listening even to those who would dogmatically teach one way over another. Yet, despite this, I have not arrived to a point where I am absolutely certain on it.

In fact, I feel content that it ultimately doesn't affect my relationship with the Lord. I certainly would like to know how it will all come about. However, even in Revelation and Ezekiel, there are parts that just aren't truly necessary for us to know until, perhaps, when the timing is right. It's reminds me of the "seven thunders" in Revelation chapter 10.

Even Irenaeus (mentioned earlier) said something of this sorts in his writings against heresies. He essentially pointed this out when discussing the danger of trying to calculate the number of the name of the beast and proclaim a potential candidate.

Now, I hope that it would be obvious that I am not equating the writings of Irenaeus, Polycarp or others with the Scripture. They are flawed men with writings that are certainly not Scripture (and they said as much too). However, I did point out Irenaeus because of some of the things he wrote (possibly regarding a "catching away" before the time of God's wrath) not too long after the death of the apostle John. However, I am also aware that he is just a man.

I do think that there are parts of eschatology that are either clear or very widely accepted. We see the Lord's return as imminent. We see the return of the Lord to the Earth to rule and reign. We must be watchful.

And, of course, bringing this back to Brother Zac Poonen's message in the original post: We will have tribulation in this world. We must be steadfast and patient through tribulation. This is wise in earthly tribulation as well as any tribulation that we might encounter. In good times or in bad, our prayer should always be "Come, Lord Jesus."

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Christopher

I’m pretty solidly no-Trib, but I must say that Staff’s argument about things being pretty normal at Christ’s return is a good one if applied to the rapture.

Personally I think it applies to the horrors of the Roman siege and destruction of Jerusalem (and the Jewish temple worship) in 70 AD. Make no mistake- it was Jesus who came in judgment on the clouds at that time.

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Todd

I tend to see it fit as you describe it -
That’s why they wrote about the “end” that was soon to come… it did in 70AD-
yet much like how John the Baptist mistook the timeline of events that must come to pass as being far more condensed than it actually was, perhaps that was also true of the NT writers or even more so, perhaps we are reading into the text something they didn’t intend to be applied. The reason I consider this is due to the fact we are 2000yrs out from the time it was pinned to paper. While the scriptures are timeless in their value and application, they are nonetheless written from a local perspective, informed by their local experience.
These topics were not of particular concern as they were facing literal extermination on a daily. From the texts their concern was advancing the kingdom, as such it would not be a stretch to consider they imagined the total fulfillment to occur in 70AD and wrote from that particular perspective…

In either case, 2 Thess 2 makes a t clear that this day, return of Christ, can’t come until first the great apostasy occurs and the man of sin, son of perdition (AC) is revealed- while it could be argued that is being fulfilled presently, the anti-Christ has yet to be revealed,… unless I’ve missed it 🤷🏽‍♂️

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Fletcher

This did not happen in 70AD


Mat 24:29 - “But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.


24:30 - “And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.

24:31 - “And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET BLAST, and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His [fn]elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Thus the tribulation referred to just prior to these verses cannot have happened unless I don’t properly understand the words “immediately after”.

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Robert

What you do not understand is apocalyptic language.

See Is. 13

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Todd

I only know a few languages from the East. I’ll try to find a course. :)

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Robert

I was able to locate a course in apocalyptic language online offered by Gnostic Universoty if anyone has interest.

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Robert