Hi TMK,
And the double standards of Zac Poonen supporters?
urs staff

I’m not a big follower of ZP (but I certainly respect him) so I can’t really speak to that.

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Todd

As for me, I tend to lean towards post-trip, but I do believe we will be spared God's wrath by rapture before the bowl judments.

As with Jesus first coming, things were shrouded in mystery even for the most learned scholars. Instead, the revelation came to simple handmades, devout intercessors, and shepherds who tended the flock by night in obscure places like Bethlehem, - which may be a characteristic of true shepherds who keep watch even at the darkest night hour. This is the time we are living in now.

As it was then, so it is today:
Psalms 25:14-15 King James Version (KJV)
The secret of the LORD is with them that fear him; And he will shew them his covenant. Mine eyes are ever toward the LORD; For he shall pluck my feet out of the net.

As we are awaiting the Master's second coming, let us follow the example of Mary, Elisabeth, Hannah and Simeon and the shepherds. You may add Isaiah 1:3 The ox knows his owner, and the donkey his master's crib; but Israel doesn't know.

The donkey allowed the master to ride it.
May the Lord take us for a ride!

The ox forfeited his crib for the master to lay down.
What a wonderful picture of meekness.

Last not least were the magi, who came with precious gifts from a far coutry and the intension to worship the son of God.

The bible gives us wonderful examples of those who the Lord is willing to reveal his coming, and so will it be for the his second coming.

So my simple receipe is: Be ready for the Lord and persecution any time. That works for pretrib, posttrib and even sudden death.

Hi staff,

_________________
Christopher

Hi Chrissss,
So what I mean is that Zac firstly uses experience rather than scripture to validate his view that we go through the tribulation.He gains the audience trust first ..... with his resume and then uses believers experience for creating doctrine...This sermon feels like a cheap 3 card trick...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6sovV_ryr8c&t=22s

The experience=
1. Minute 1:16 Nobody believes it in the persecuted countries like China or former communist countries.
2 Minute 1:20 It arose in countries that never experienced peresecution for centuries
3 Minute 1:28
Corrie Ten Boon is given as an example that because of her persecution she didnt believe in Pre trib rapture.
4
He delibrately teaches false hoods
"We waited for Jesus to come but the communist came"
Nobody teached that the rapture would happen to take people out of tribulation or individual countries difficulties like the communists coming.
5 He says that the pre trib belief only arose 150yrs ago and even if their is some truth in this it makes no difference,it has to be refuted with scripture only.It doesnt make it wrong when it was brought to the fore.After all arent we meant to know more about the end times the closer we get to it!

So his foundation for his doctrine is not the bible but the experience of believers.
He puts one of the reasons to believe him is that he studied the bible for 50 yrs and basically he's an expert,trust in his experience .He says that he couldnt find one verse...
He must have overlooked :As it were in the days of Noah,as it were in the days of Lot where Jesus clearly shows he is coming before Judgement.

Firstly the experience of the believer does not trump scripture.Whether Christians in China suffer persecution or whether Christians in the west have an easy time does not influence doctrine.The doctrine comes from the scripture not from believers experience.Whether the believers experience is hard in one place or easy in an other.
Secondly persecution/tribulation is not The Great Tribulation.They are not the same thing at all.
The Great Tribulation is a specific period of time.
He cleverly like most post trib believers links the fact because we go through tribulation in this life then we must also go through The Great Tribulation.


The reason I highlight these things is not because I am a pre tribber which I am but because Post tribbers believe that their is no harmful consequence to their belief and their is ,its called bondage...

urs staff

Hi staff,

I agree that the understanding that Christians already experience enormous tribulation in this world doesn't fit for a post-tribulation argument. Although I suspect that most post-tribulation believers don't adhere to this rationale, I've certain read this argument over the years.

For one, the implication is that people who believe in a "rapture" don't believe that Christians face persecution or tribulation in this life. Or, of course, there is an underlying notion that "rapture" believers won't be ready for the "Great Tribulation" because they don't believe that they are appointed for it.

Years ago, there was a eschatology discussion in which someone voiced concern that I would become beguiled and take the "mark of the beast" and/or accept the anti-Christ as the Lord because I leaned toward a pre-tribulation "gathering" of the Bride of Christ.

It was difficult to convince some deeply concerned post-tribulation believers that I would be safe because my eyes would forever be on Jesus. No matter what was coming, I argued that my faith was unwavering. Yet, at times, it seemed like this was not enough to convince others.

I suppose that the biggest surprise was that I found many of the most vocal post-tribulation believers who said that they were previously convinced of a pre-tribulation "rapture" yet were now even more convinced of the post-tribulation timeline. Some stated that this came after "years" of studying the issue. However, I asked why they couldn't afford the same period of grace through studying the issue to those of us who lean pre-tribulation as they stated that had experienced.

Now, I do not fault those who sincerely (and after much prayerful study) embrace a post-tribulation perspective. After all, I still "lean" toward a pre-tribulation perspective myself -- fully aware that it is very possible that the Church might live through the period when God pours out His wrath on the whole world.

That's why I have made the effort to study all sides of this topic. I've studied through the Word of God on this specific topic in addition to all of my daily studying of his Word. I've seen oft-repeated claims that I went on to study carefully to determine where there was any validity.

With all sincerity, I do understand why some believers embrace the post-tribulation view. Some of the arguments do give me a few moments of pause. I even get why some embrace mid-tribulation or other views. I don't think that most of these believers that I know are in "bondage" to that post-trib or mid-trib belief or in danger either (although I 'm not impressed when anyone stakes their view as if it were the only one that matters).

In fact, there was a time in which I felt that (at least on SermonIndex) I was part of a very tiny minority opinion on leaning toward the concept of a "rapture" -- or, as I prefer to describe it, a gathering together of the Bride before the wrath of God. However, at times, there were others who would sometimes share similar views if only to show that we were not alone.

Like I said, I'm trying to write a coherent and cohesive rationale of the Scriptural reasons that I still strongly lean toward this view. It has nothing to do with believing that Christians should somehow "escape" earthly tribulation. It has nothing to do with "easy believism." It has nothing to do with any sort of influence from those silly "Left Behind" novels or films (which I have never read nor watched).

When I believed, I didn't really hold any individual's, local church's or denomination's views on eschatology. This is because I never really paid any attention to such things before I believed. I didn't really believe in God, so the thought of the Lord's return wasn't really an afterthought until the Lord began dealing with my heart in the months before I believed. So, my views are primarily influenced by what I've read in Scripture AFTER I believed. At that point, I questioned EVERYTHING (and every person) that I had ever heard or was hearing.

I'm confident that many other believers have had this same experience. As believers, we all want to seek God and believe only what is true. This is true whether we are pre-trib, post-trib, mid-trib or simply unsure.

So, although I typically eschew many labels, my own study of God's Word has developed a sense regarding many of the issues that I've seen debated over and over again. Some of the debates have actually surprised me -- because there are concepts that some people have debated that I didn't know were even up for debate. Still, I believe that "iron sharpens iron." I don't mind being challenged about my views or perspectives because I should know not only what I believe but why I believe it.

Even eschatology can be discussed or even debated with conversations that are seasoned with grace. This is because those who discuss these things most often have the same love for the Lord and for the family of God. Each of us is a part of this body of Christ -- knowing that our love for one another how the world will know that we are his disciples.

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Christopher

I don't know how you've come up with the 99.9%. People are moving away from pre-trib. They're finding it to be full of contradictions. The biggest one of all is "Mathew 24 was directed only toward Jews and Israel."

I believe what Jesus said on the issue.

Hi Muckah,
So how do you get over this issue below ignored by 99.9& of post trib believers??
Jesus said when asked about the end
As it were in the days of Noah and a it were in the days of Lot....they did eat, drink,build,sow,marry(not in lots case) given in Marriage etc UNTIL THE DAY Noah was taken in the Ark and Lot was taken out of Sodom by Angels.
Their was no Judgement until the good guys were taken out and they lived normal lives with normal activities until this happened(this could not happen in the Great Tribulation)
urs staff

Hi Chrisss,
I guess its just the free pass Zac Poonen is given by SI to say whatever he wants and then is highlighted as being an outstanding preacher on the issue of end times which he certainly is not,
urs staff

When does the pre-trib view believe the Old Testament saints will be resurrected? I'm not clear on this. I know early pre-trib in the days of Darby taught they would be raised in a pre-trib rapture but changed their teaching after being shown it contradicted scripture What is taught today?

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David Winter