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Discussion Forum : Articles and Sermons : The Church Will Face Tribulation by Zac Poonen

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Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 1915
Dothan, Alabama

 Re: Todd

Well before I was ever converted and baptized, at that time I considered myself a Taoist, my boss/friend was a very zealot Christian. He told me back in the early ‘90’s that the most likely scenario was that the fallen angels/nephilim would be presented as aliens, saying something to the effect that they had come here millennia ago and seeded us and we are their offspring or something like that. I thought he was bonkers but nowadays with not only transgender people but now “furry’s” in the local schools, attending like any other student except of course they are led on leashes, mostly make animal sounds and use litter boxes-[not a joke] maybe he wasn’t so crazy after all…. 🤔

So maybe just maybe your original idea might not be as far from the truth as you thought 🤷🏽‍♂️

It does grieve my heart to see the youth of this age taken captive, mutilated and corrupted right in front of everyone’s eyes and most are too distracted to care.
Or they are too scared of the consequences of speaking up…
So for me, wether we go before, during or after- my mission is the same, to reach the lost, encourage and edify the body, minister to the Lord, be the priest of my home- watch closely, discerning the time .


 2023/9/17 17:54Profile

Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 2200


Hi guys,
I wasnt around for a couple of days....
but I want to explain something that I am saying I got from God but its up to you to judge for yourselves.
I have said it before but I will say it again regarding the scripture below but I will try to explain it better if I can

This ressurection whether the rapture or not depending on your viewpoint is being misread and mis understood.
This ressurection mentioned here is a process,its a process.
It takes time,its not instantaneous.
This is crucial in understanding this passage.

What happens in this process?

The Lord descends
The dead in Christ rise first
Then those who are alive rise

The very fact that the word "first" is mentioned means their is at least something following it.
The only thing that is instantaneous is the changing of our corruptable bodies and this is the only thing that is instantaneous or "in the twinkling of an eye".
So we can say that the process takes time but the changing is instantaneous.
Why is this so important?
It is so important because it means that this ressurection is visible not secret or invisible.
The only reason that people say that this ressurection is invisible is because they read these scripture wrong and think the whole thing is instantaneous and happens so quickly it cant be seen.
This is very important from a pretrib point of view.
Because it means that the non Christians left behind see the rapture and in seeing the rapture many become believers and populate the great tribulation.
urs staff

1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Cor 15 50
Now I say this, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does [u]the perishable inherit [v]the imperishable. 51Behold, I am telling you a [w]mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised [x]imperishable, and we will be changed.

 2023/9/17 19:37Profile

Joined: 2021/11/14
Posts: 39


Hi brother Markus,

That is so true and amazing what Paul Washer said in 2008.
The amount of evil in this world is increasing and it grew so much during the pandemic.
Thank you for sharing the video and yes let's continually fix our eyes on Jesus, He is truly our hope.

Robert Yulboum

 2023/9/18 19:56Profile

Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3644
East TN for now!


///Back when I was a pre-tribber I thought the rapture might be explained by those left behind as being due to alien abductions. Why they would think the aliens only took Christians is a little more problematic///
Ha!! I believed that too when I was pre-trib!!! LOLOL


 2023/9/19 7:04Profile

Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 738


Zechariah 14, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, and 2nd Thessalonians 2, are they not referring to the same day?

And as the same day in Revelation 19:17-20, Luke 17:34-37, and Matthew 24:29-31;

That while the saints are ‘raptured’ to the Lord the unrepentant are taken away (‘raptured’) to the great battlefield:

Rev 19:17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and with a loud voice he called to all the birds that fly directly overhead, “Come, gather for the great supper of God,

Rev 19:18 to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all men, both free and slave, both small and great.”

Mat 24:29  And immediately AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. 

Mat 24:30  And then the sign of the Son of Man shall appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of the heaven with power and great glory. 

Mat 24:31  And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. 

The entire world's population, can it be fitted in the 'valley of decision'? And they said to him, “Where, Lord?” He said to them, “Where the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.”

 2023/9/19 10:21Profile

Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 738


If you could follow this particular 'post-trib' line of thinking i.e. that the unbelievers are the ones to be swept away (Matt 24:39) or are taken (Matt 24:40-41) that is;

to Luke 17:37  And they said to him, “Where, Lord?” He said to them, “Where the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.” that pertains to;

Rev 19:17  Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and with a loud voice he called to all the birds that fly directly overhead, “Come, gather for the great supper of God, 

Rev 19:18  to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all men, both free and slave, both small and great.” Which presumably also points to 'valley of decision/judgement'.

Now there are problem with this, in the book of Revelation it is said:

1. Rev 20:7  And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison

Rev 20:8  and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea.

If the unbelievers are taken and destroyed as described where will the nations in Rev 20:8 come from?

2. Also a review of Zechariah 14 and taking note of Zechariah 14:12  "And this shall be the plague with which THE LORD WILL STRIKE ALL THE PEOPLE THAT WAGE WAR AGAINST JERUSALEM: their flesh will rot while they are still standing on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths". 

It says only 'peoples (plural of people when referring to nations or distinct ethnic group) that wage war against Jerusalem' Where then are the unbelievers of Luke 17: 34-37 taken to with regards to space or location?

 2023/9/20 22:56Profile

Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6475


Passerby- because in context Jesus is talking about the slaughter during the sack of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 AD not some yet future slaughter.


 2023/9/21 7:58Profile

Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 738


I think, that will be a more difficult pill to swallow for many of us. I wonder who are the best authors/proponents or any good sites to pursue about this viewpoint.

 2023/9/21 22:05Profile

Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4732


Hi Todd,


Passerby- because in context Jesus is talking about the slaughter during the sack of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 AD not some yet future slaughter.

While I think that there is a great (and somewhat obvious) argument for part of what Jesus spoke about occurring when Titus marched on Jerusalem roughly 40 years later, I do think that there is another way to consider this discourse. It could refer to both the near future AND distant future.

In Matthew's account, the disciples asked Jesus privately (following his initial statement about the destruction of the Temple), "Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"

There are three parts to this question (or, perhaps, two or three separate questions):
1.) When will these things be?
2.) What will be the sign of your coming?
3.) What will be the sign of the end of the age?

I suppose that others have pointed this out previously; but, our Lord's response could be covering all three of these questions.

However, I have previously mentioned the possibility that a prophecy can refer to TWO or more events in which that prophecy is fulfilled. As such, I mentioned the "abomination which causes desolation" spoken of by the prophet Daniel.

Many (if not most) Bible scholars believe that this refers to Antiochus Epiphanes -- the vile Greek king who sacrificed a pig in the Temple of the Lord. This happened in ~156 B.C. Even many non-believing historians believe that Daniel was written after 156 B.C. and cite this passage (and others from Daniel) as being "too accurate" and suggest that it was written in the similitude of a "prophecy."

Yet, Jesus said that this "abomination that causes desolation" spoken of by Daniel had not yet happened (Matthew 24:15). So, the interpretation of the Temple's destruction is when Roman general (and future emperor) Titus destroyed it in 70 A.D. (in which the Temple was destroyed -- 40 years after our Lord's "temple" was destroyed).

Still others interpret this not as 156 B.C. or 70 A.D. but as referring to some future fulfillment. There are others who, like myself, perceive that this prophecy found its fulfillment in 156 B.C., 70 A.D. and, possibly, in the future. It is like an overlapping prophecy that is fulfilled multiple times.

So, my question is: Do you believe that the "abomination that causes desolation" refers to Antiochus Epiphanes in 156 B.C., Titus/Romans in 70 A.D. or some other event?


 2023/9/22 0:22Profile

Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6475



Compare the abomination of desolation verse in Matthew to its parallel in Luke.


So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
17 Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house,
18 and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak.

But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.

This answers your question, at least for me.


 2023/9/22 7:02Profile

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