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drifter
Member



Joined: 2005/6/6
Posts: 1025
Campbell River, B.C.

 Re:

Todd, there are essential doctrines and non essential doctrines. The essentials are: The Trinity, the virgin birth of Christ, the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus, the sovereignty of God, salvation by grace through faith. And eternal judgment (Hebrews 6:1,2.)

Non essentials are thing like: eschatological views (pre, post-millenialism, pre, mid or post tribulationism), Arminianism vs Calvinism, age of the earth etc.

The writer of Hebrews says eternal judgment is a foundational (essential) doctrine. One view is right and one is wrong. It is an emanation from Satan that we can't know for sure.


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Nigel Holland

 2023/5/25 20:46Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

The list of Hebrews 6:1-2 is not a Christian list but rather a Jewish list. These are Jewish foundations. Look into it further.


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Todd

 2023/5/25 21:16Profile
BranchinVINE
Member



Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 1268
Australia

 Re:



Quote:
[Jade,
This doctrine of UR can and does lead people astray. It’s not just a personal issue. Keep to this doctrine as you will. The concern is not just for you but those you might mislead. There is eternal consequence and damage when one convinces someone they might not surely die. If this were just a theological debate I personally would have never begun.]

I could not more agree with your statement. It is not a small thing to try to convince others of this doctrine, just as it is with any other doctrine that is contrary to the bible. The bible is full of warnings about this.



2 Tim. 2:1-4 –
First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of ALL MEN, for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, WHO DESIRES ALL MEN TO BE SAVED and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom FOR ALL, the testimony given at the proper time.

We are urged to pray for “ALL men” because “GOD DESIRES ALL MEN TO BE SAVED” for “the man Christ Jesus………gave Himself as a ransom FOR ALL.”

Is this not an instruction to pray for universal reconciliation??

Do you sweep this instruction under the carpet because it does not align with your belief?

If a clear instruction in scripture clashes with your belief, shouldn’t you re-think what you believe?

Do we rely on the power of prayer and the power of the Holy Spirit OR our hell-fire preaching to bring sinners to Christ?


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Jade

 2023/5/26 3:15Profile
narrowpath
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Joined: 2005/1/9
Posts: 1522
Germany NRW

 Re:

WHO DESIRES ALL MEN TO BE SAVED and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Yes, God desires is all men to be saved, but this is not an automatism, it also depends on our faith and obedience to be saved. It needs all of God and all of me. That has nothing to do with works salvation, as faith and obedience is not a work but rather the opposite; the surrender of my life to Christ.

In other passages of the letters to Timothy Paul wants explicitly about apostasy and they consequential loss of salvation.

 2023/5/26 6:09Profile
BranchinVINE
Member



Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 1268
Australia

 Re:


Matt. 21:22—
And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive.

Who are we to limit God?

Is anything too hard for God?

Is the Holy Spirit not able to bring every descendant of Adam to repentance and have faith in Christ?

If New Jerusalem is the bride, who are the “nations” that will walk by its light (Rev. 21:24)?

If New Jerusalem is already filled with the glory of God (Rev. 21:10-11), who are the “nations” that will be healed by the leaves of the tree of life (Rev. 22:2)?


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Jade

 2023/5/26 7:15Profile
drifter
Member



Joined: 2005/6/6
Posts: 1025
Campbell River, B.C.

 Re:

The principles of the doctrine of Christ is Jewish? So I guess it's not an essential doctrine to believe in Christ anymore?

The church started with the Jews, so of course it would be a "Jewish list." To say, though, that repentance from dead works and faith towards God is for the Jews only is just... I have no words left.


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Nigel Holland

 2023/5/26 14:25Profile
RandRman2023
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Joined: 2023/5/21
Posts: 56
Canada

 Re:

Take a deep breath...I know, I know... :(


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Paul

 2023/5/26 17:06Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

From David Guzik’s Bible Commentary:

A. The essential nature of maturity.
1. (Hebrews 6:1a) Going beyond the basics.

Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection,

a. Therefore: The writer rebuked his readers for their spiritual immaturity but he knew that nothing was gained by treating them as immature. He continued with his instruction and warnings.

b. Elementary principles: This has the idea of “rudiments” or “ABCs.” They are basic building blocks that are necessary, but must be built upon — otherwise has only a foundation and no structure.

c. Perfection: This is the ancient Greek word teleiotes, which is much better understood as “maturity.” The writer to the Hebrews did say that we can not reach perfection on this side of eternity, but that we can and should reach a place of maturity in Jesus. The call is plain: let us go on to perfection.

i. “Teleiotes does not imply complete knowledge but a certain maturity in the Christian faith.” (Barclay)

2. (Hebrews 6:1b-2) Some of the “basics” to go beyond.

Not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

a. Not laying again the foundation: These elementary principles are given in three pairs. Repentance and faith go together. Baptisms and laying on of hands go together. Resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment are paired together.

b. Not laying again the foundation: Many people regard this as a Biblical list of important elementary principles for the Christian life. Bible study and discipleship series have been taught developing each one of these topics, with the thought that this is a good list of basic doctrines. But that wasn’t the writer’s point here at all.

i. To understand this list, one must ask basic questions:

What is distinctively Christian about this list?
Where is the specific mention of Jesus or salvation by grace alone?
Could one believe in or practice these things and still not be a follower of Jesus Christ, and not believe Him to be the Messiah?
ii. “When we consider the ‘rudiments’ one by one, it is remarkable how little in the list is distinctive of Christianity, for practically every item could have its place in a fairly orthodox Jewish community… Each of them, indeed, acquires a new significance in a Christian context; but the impression we get is that existing Jewish beliefs and practices were used as a foundation on which to build Christian truth.” (Bruce)

iii. “It is profoundly significant to observe how little distinctively Christian there is in this statement. Repentance, faith, resurrection, and judgment were certainly Jewish, and on this account the reference seems to be the Jewish foundation, and they are urged to avoid these elementary things which they are to leave for something higher and richer.” (Griffith Thomas)

c. Of the doctrine of baptisms: Not even baptisms, as it is used in this passage, is necessarily Christian. The specific ancient Greek word here translated baptisms (baptismos) is not the word regularly used in the New Testament to describe Christian baptism (baptizo). Baptismos is the word used on three other specific instances to refer to Jewish ceremonial washings (Hebrews 9:10, Mark 7:4, and Mark 7:8).

i. The New English Bible translation reflects this, translating “doctrine of baptisms” as instruction about cleansing rites. The ESV translation has, instruction about washings.

ii. Bruce quotes Nairne: “‘Doctrines of washings’--how unnatural are the attempts to explain this plural as referring to Christian Baptism.”

d. The foundation: In this case, the elementary principles to move beyond are all items in a common ground of belief between Christianity and Judaism. This was a safe common ground for these discouraged Jewish Christians to retreat back to.


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Todd

 2023/5/26 17:33Profile
CofG
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Joined: 2017/2/12
Posts: 964
Cambodia

 Re:

Todd,

The elementary principles listed in the Hebrew 6 text are called "milk" in the immediately preceding verses and they are taught to Christians as baby food. The milk of the Gospel for unbelievers is the focus of those elementary principles, repentance toward God and faith in Jesus, the resurrection, eternal judgement ( which is in all actual Gospel presentation recorded in the NT). There is also the Gospel for believers that calls and enables NT Christians to move onto maturity and that is really the tenet of the New Covenant in His blood which is what is discussed in the companion texts in Hebrews 10.

Meat, or food for training in righteousness, that is Christ like character and bearing fruit for the saints in service discussed in the ensuing Hebrews 6 verses are the point of maturity and likewise the leaving behind of immaturity when one is brought into the covenant through forgiveness and new birth. This is the same theme picked up again in Hebrews 10 where people have gotten "lazy" or dull of hearing and haven't moved on in their walk because of neglect and fear.

The proof of the point in this reply is in Hebrews 6:4 where there is a warning about the potential danger of reaching a point of remaining immature and then losing the ability to repent because of their intentional failure to attain to maturity and fruit bearing for the saints. God permits a degree of laziness but eventually His patience could run out which is what the point that verse 3 declares. A huge warning.

Laziness in the Christian walk to make every effort to attain to perfection ( Philippians 3 and 2 Peter 1:3, et seq) or maturity or the fullness of Christ is the point of this warning in Hebrews 6 and the one in Hebrews 10. Not to sound condescending, but "Look into the texts themselves further." Read Hebrews 5:11-14 and Hebrews 6:4-8 and then look into 6:1-2. Compare these texts to Philippians 3 and 2 Peter 1. No offense to David Guzik.

Hebrews 6 and 10 are intended to describe the lazy or neglectful Christian who has spent years as a baby in self feeding and self concern and who has not striven or raced or made every effort to move in the direction of Christlikeness and putting others' needs in the Body or Kingdom first which is the point of the New Covenant and Christ's sacrifice.

Unfortunately far too many Christians have enabled far too many professing Christians to stay comfortable with a false sense of security in either their original conclusion that they are saved or in their immaturity as real Christians. Their laziness and neglect in making every effort to increase in and attain to the goal of "perfection", the "divine nature" or the "fullness of Christ in maturity" is putting them and those who teach them or encourage them in such an attitude at great risk.


Without any doubt, Hebrews 6:1 concerns the elementary teachings about Christ and thus the text and the warnings of Hebrews to Christians who are in peril of falling backwards and not moving forwards in maturity in the face of fearful persecution, and then having to face the living God, are critically important to salvation and not being broken off.






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Robert

 2023/5/26 18:59Profile
CofG
Member



Joined: 2017/2/12
Posts: 964
Cambodia

 Re:

BTW Todd,

Virtually every established religion is the world believes in the salvific effects of “dead works”. Hindus, Bhudhists, Muslims and many professing believers in Christ. Therefore all true Christian repentance anywhere in the world includes repentance from trying to appease for sin or even please God through dead works. The idea is far more applicable in the non- Jewish context in sheer volume alone.


_________________
Robert

 2023/5/26 19:57Profile





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