I noticed that in these discussions that some people are entrenched in their positions and they do not respond to overwhelming evidence and facts presented against their position. Actually, most people in the world, including the smartest, believe a lie. This is all well described in Romans 1, as many of you already mentioned. Devine truth can only be understood by surrender to God and revelation otherwise it is withheld from out minds, and rightly so. God takes pleasure in confounding the wise and giving grace to the humble.
I have seen people with Down syndrome praising Jesus, they are wiser than the Einsteins of this world.

Truth is vested in the person of Christ. Universalism strikes at the fundamentals of the faith and is diametrically opposed to Jesus words. Jesus spoke so much about hell and I wonder how any born again Christian can ever believe this doctrine.
Jade, I do not want to attack you in person but I am praying for your soul.

_________________
Jade

Jade,

This doctrine of UR can and does lead people astray. It’s not just a personal issue. Keep to this doctrine as you will. The concern is not just for you but those you might mislead. There is eternal consequence and damage when one convinces someone they might not surely die. If this were just a theological debate I personally would have never begun.

In my brother Todd’s case, I have even more concern even though he might not need it in his mind. Todd has staked the character of the goodness and mercy of God on his interpretation and preference. This isn’t my speculation but his own explicit statements. That is a very dangerous road to convince others to take in the first instance or walk others down.

There are no “strong arguments” for UR in light of direct statements ( not arguments) in the Scriptures that explicitly state the contrary. Pure Eisigesis to fit a preferred definition of what a good or merciful God would do in one’s own musings. Deadly game. It’s idolatry and one who leads others into idolatry has some pretty harsh addresses from God in Old and New.

It’s heartening to see others correct because they love the lost and desire Godly sorrow and repentance for all.

_________________
Robert

When we say God is good, all the time, on what basis do we make that judgment?

It seems there are two possibilities: 1) we use our idea of right and wrong (we were created in God’s image). God expects us to know the difference between right and wrong, otherwise God would not expect holiness or obedience. 2) we take the position that everything God does is good, because He does it, regardless of whether in actuality it seems very bad.

Someone once said (can’t remember who) that to say God’s goodness might be different from man’s goodness is just another way of saying that God may possibly not be good.

Y’all are saying that sinners deserve an eternal hell. But you have to go back further than that. You have to think about who created sinners. Who allowed a Satan. Who set up a system where the known outcome would be sin, and who created a place of endless torment.

Indeed, there was provision made at the cross, but only a tiny fraction avail themselves. And further, in a certain theological system God chooses who will avail themselves of that provision and who will not.

So to state it succinctly, and to summarize, most of you believe that God created men and women, knowing that the vast vast majority of them will end up in place He created where they will be tormented forever.

That means that most of you think this is good because God did it. So the question becomes, what in the world would it take for God not to be good?

I believe God is good, because God has instilled in me a sense of what “good” means. CS Lewis appeals to this idea of “conscience” in his opening chapters of Mere Christianity. Because I believe God is good, I have great difficulty with the “set up.” It doesn’t seem good, no matter how you slice it, that God would create humans to torture them, much less for all eternity.

Like I said previously, I suspect there is much hidden from us by God that is not clearly revealed in scripture. We cannot know the full mind of God not how this will all work out because human language cannot adequately convey it. But ultimately I believe God is good, really good. Not pretend good.

And Robert you need not fear for my soul either, nice of you to think about me though. I’ve been a Christian for many, many years, walk closely with the Lord on a daily basis. I have never discussed this topic other than in this and one other theology forum. I am not an apostle of Universal Reconciliation because I am not a universalist. But I do lean toward Conditional Immortality. Ultimately, however, I am undecided, but it’s a moot point for me because I know my destination.

_________________
Todd

Todd,

If I had your phone number I would call you. Just to be clear, if God created billions of people and most of them end up in eternal torment by their own intentional sin, then such a God is bad or evil ?

_________________
Robert

You left out the part about Him allegedly creating the “system” in the first place and knowing what would happen.

I am decidedly *not* saying God is bad or evil- quite the contrary.

_________________
Todd

CofG

We disagree.

And it is clear that even long after the cows come home, we will still disagree.

But I am sure that you cannot disagree that we are exhorted to pray for all men because it is God’s desire for all men to be saved.

2 Tim. 2:1-4 –
First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of ALL MEN, for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, WHO DESIRES ALL MEN TO BE SAVED and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom FOR ALL, the testimony given at the proper time.


If you sincerely heed God’s Word and do that, that is enough. God will do the rest.

Matt. 21:22—
And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive.

Isa. 59:16 –
And He saw that there was no man,
And was astonished that there was no one to intercede;

God who calls us to be in the image of His Son and also calls us not to repay evil for evil and to overcome evil with good (Rom. 12:17,21) will surely Himself do the same.

_________________
Jade

"God who calls us to be in the image of His Son and also calls us not to repay evil for evil and to overcome evil with good (Rom. 12:17,21) will surely Himself do the same."

Yes God provided a way to overcome evil with good.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.
But we need to read a bit further than that:
V 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.
V 18 Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son

Just a thought I want to add that I believe is important.
But I won't comment further.

"In Christ alone my hope is found..."

Markus

[Jade,

This doctrine of UR can and does lead people astray. It’s not just a personal issue. Keep to this doctrine as you will. The concern is not just for you but those you might mislead. There is eternal consequence and damage when one convinces someone they might not surely die. If this were just a theological debate I personally would have never begun.]

I could not more agree with your statement. It is not a small thing to try to convince others of this doctrine, just as it is with any other doctrine that is contrary to the bible. The bible is full of warnings about this.

NP-

Who is to judge what doctrines are contrary to the Bible? You? How awesome for you. Where do you stand on Calvinism and all it’s points? What is your eschatological view? Where do you stand on gifts of the spirit- do they continue today? Shall I continue on?

_________________
Todd