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PosterThread
CofG
Member



Joined: 2017/2/12
Posts: 964
Cambodia

 Re:

Always. Good includes hating evil and judging. That’s why only the righteous can dwell in His presence. Mercy includes not just reconciliation or even merely forgiveness. Mercy and Grace make us perfect as He is perfect making us fit to dwell with Him forever. This perfection process occurs when we are born again, continues in sanctification and ends in glorification. The fullest glory and praise worthy mercy and Grace of God is our Christlikeness. Scripture about reconciliation is the beginning of the journey.

My question to you is this……. if the universal remedial punishment you have suggested is accurate as a means of salvation and glorification for billions of people who die in their sin, why is this remedial temporary suffering in the lake of fire not specifically mentioned and explained generously in Scripture as is you must be born again, you must be sanctified in order to see God, you must endure suffering from the Father in training in righteousness or you are illegitimate children? Why are those not born again referred to as children of the evil one ?


_________________
Robert

 2023/5/24 8:33Profile
TrueWitness
Member



Joined: 2006/8/10
Posts: 661


 Re:

Quote:
For as in Adam ALL die, so also in Christ ALL will be made alive.



That verse is not saying everyone is in Christ. It is saying that all who are in Christ will be made alive.

 2023/5/24 9:35Profile
BranchinVINE
Member



Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 1268
Australia

 Re:



TrueWitness

Quote:
That verse is not saying everyone is in Christ. It is saying that all who are in Christ will be made alive.



This is the grand end:

1 Cor. 15:28 –
When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, SO THAT GOD MAY BE ALL IN ALL.

2 Cor. 5:18-19 –
Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Comment: God will be ALL IN ALL by ALL IN CHRIST.

Note: "that God was IN CHRIST reconciling the WORLD to Himself".


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Jade

 2023/5/24 10:31Profile
TrueWitness
Member



Joined: 2006/8/10
Posts: 661


 Re:

That is all who survive and remain after the Great Judgment.

 2023/5/24 10:49Profile
BranchinVINE
Member



Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 1268
Australia

 Re:



Connect these 2 scripture verses:

1 Cor. 15:22 –
For as in Adam ALL die, so also in Christ ALL will be made alive.

Rom. 5:18 –
So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to ALL men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to ALL men.


Where is it written that the ALL are all those who survive and remain after the Great Judgment?


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Jade

 2023/5/24 11:18Profile
BranchinVINE
Member



Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 1268
Australia

 Re:



Hi Robert,

Quote:
The trouble is that you haven’t answered the questions asked. First, do you believe that there is a warning in Hebrews 4 to real Christians that they must be careful not to harden their hearts at that time or they will never enter his rest ?



The warning is that they will not enter God’s rest if they harden their hearts.

God’s rest is the place of exceedingly great peace and joy and blessings.

It is typified by the land of Canaan in the OT, the land flowing with milk and honey; the land filled with great and splendid cities they did not build, and houses full of good things they did not fill, and hewn cisterns which they did not dig, vineyards and olive trees which they did not plant, and they ate and were satisfied (Deut.6:10-11).

Those who did not enter Canaan died in the wilderness. They were not subjected to a tormenting punishment that went on and on and on and on.



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Jade

 2023/5/24 11:49Profile
CofG
Member



Joined: 2017/2/12
Posts: 964
Cambodia

 Re:

Goodness Jade,

I know you have stressed Scripture over opinions or bad extrapolations in the past. This was very easy to find to undo your statement.

And another, a third angel, followed them and spoke with a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he will also drink the wine of God’s wrath, which is poured full strength into the cup of his anger. He will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the sight of the holy angels and in the sight of the Lamb, and the smoke of their torment will go up forever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or anyone who receives the mark of its name. This calls for endurance from the saints, who keep God’s commands and their faith in Jesus.”

Then I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.”

“Yes,” says the Spirit, “so they will rest from their labors, since their works follow them.” -- Revelation 14:9-13 (CSB)


Notice the direct link between eternal torment, those who worship the beast and receive the mark, and the saints who enter into His rest. One would really have to be dead set and intransigent towards a preferred point of view to wrestle long with this one.

Eternal torment or not, and it does seem obvious, those who harden their hearts who are described in Hebrews 4 will 'never enter His rest'.


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Robert

 2023/5/24 17:56Profile
CofG
Member



Joined: 2017/2/12
Posts: 964
Cambodia

 Re:

Taking Rev.14 where there is no rest day or night from the torment that lasts forever and ever and combining it with this similar text from Jesus:

Then he (Jesus) will also say to those on the left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and angels....... and they ( those who are told to depart ) will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. Matthew 25: 41, 46.

"eternal"............ never ceasing, without end. BLB

As life is eternal, never ceasing, so is eternal punishment, never ceasing punishment, to specific people committing specific sins....... those who do not love Jesus and do not love his brethern.

At this juncture, one would have to decide whether Jesus is "good" in light of what He says and commands to those who hate Him and His people. But most certainly, one cannot argue from this text that He feels or acts reconciled to them at the judgment through His blood and suffering on the cross. Nor is there one scintilla of intention on His part that He is looking forward to seeing them in the 'future"as His beloved, chaste and holy Bride once they have paid their temporary debt for hating Him and His Bride.


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Robert

 2023/5/24 20:25Profile
drifter
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Joined: 2005/6/6
Posts: 1025
Campbell River, B.C.

 Re:

Amen Robert. This is just one of the many ironclad proofs of eternal hell. The Greek word for "eternal" is "aionios" and it means age-lasting, and it is used to describe the duration of the believers reward in heaven as well as the duration of the punishment of the wicked in hell. If universalists say that hell is not eternal and enduring then they have to say the same thing about heaven. Also people in heaven could change their minds conceivably and choose hell (like Satan did.)

Maybe every few million years they could switch it up and spend some time in hell, then go right back to heaven when they've had enough rebellion.


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Nigel Holland

 2023/5/24 20:47Profile
RandRman2023
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Joined: 2023/5/21
Posts: 56
Canada

 Re:

Matthew 10.28

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Not sure if this passage has been mentioned yet, but if Jesus mentions hell, shouldn't that be enough?


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Paul

 2023/5/24 21:15Profile





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