| Poster | Thread | TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA
| | Re: | | Will you note the passage of time in heaven? Will you see Jesus walk toward you? Or perhaps a relative? If so it is not an eternal “now”.
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Todd
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|  2023/5/17 17:36 | Profile | drifter
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Joined: 2005/6/6
Posts: 1025
Campbell River, B.C.
| | Re: | | I think there is not nearly enough biblical hellfire preaching these days.
"...And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh." Jude 23
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Nigel Holland
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| | 2023/5/17 21:44 | Profile | ccchhhrrriiisss
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Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779
| | Re: | | Hi TMK,
Quote:
Chris- you may be right.
But perhaps then preachers should stop using the rhetoric of unrepentant sinners burning forever and ever and ever in hell.
It is still "forever" -- just in a sense of eternity that is somewhat unfathomable for our mortal minds.
If you speak with a scientist about the origins of the universe, they'll talk about the "known universe" and the "unknown universe." If science is based upon observation or assumptions derived from observation, it's impossible to fathom or hypothesize a realm unseen.
While most embrace the idea of a "big bang" type of beginning -- they are quick to point out that this is the beginning only of our "known universe." What came before that "singularity" is completely unknown. The science behind a singularity itself kind of defy all known physical laws too.
So, in terms of Biblical truth, "eternity" sans a universal construct of time is a state of being -- an eternal "always." I think that many people have formulated this concept using different words and terminology.
However, consider a little more from the epistle of Jude (as Nigel previously pointed out):
Quote:
8 Yet in like manner these people also, relying on their dreams, defile the flesh, reject authority, and blaspheme the glorious ones.
9 But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, was disputing about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a blasphemous judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you.”
10 But these people blaspheme all that they do not understand, and they are destroyed by all that they, like unreasoning animals, understand instinctively.
11 Woe to them! For they walked in the way of Cain and abandoned themselves for the sake of gain to Balaam's error and perished in Korah's rebellion.
12 These are hidden reefs at your love feasts, as they feast with you without fear, shepherds feeding themselves; waterless clouds, swept along by winds; fruitless trees in late autumn, twice dead, uprooted;
13 wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved FOREVER.
14 It was also about these that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his holy ones,
15 to execute judgment on all and to convict all the ungodly of all their deeds of ungodliness that they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”
16 These are grumblers, malcontents, following their own sinful desires; they are loud-mouthed boasters, showing favoritism to gain advantage.
17 But you must remember, beloved, the predictions of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ.
18 They said to you, “In the last time there will be scoffers, following their own ungodly passions.”
19 It is these who cause divisions, worldly people, devoid of the Spirit.
20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit,
21 keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ that leads to ETERNAL life.
Jude 1:8-21 (ESV)
Note that verses 13 and 21 use the terms "forever" and "eternal." Verse 13 mentions a "gloom of utter darkness" that (for those who are "twice dead") is reserved "forever." Verse 21 mentions "eternal life" where the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ leads us to.
The Greek words used here for "forever" and "eternal" (aiōnios and aiōn) are based upon the same root -- "aei." This root appears elsewhere in the New Testament as "always." It reflects a state of being.
Personally, I cannot find a UR view in either the old or new testaments. There are just too many passages -- even after the death and resurrection of Christ -- that refer to the eternal consequences of life lived without faith in the Lord. In truth, I cannot find any passages in Scripture that even imply something else.
I do think that there is a danger in trying to moralize (using contemporary morality within the feeble, fleeting human mind) the judgment of God. Although this doesn't apply to you, me or other believers, I have conversed with atheists who are quick to point an accusatory finger at God. It's strange because the very people who claim to not believe in God are the first to point their fingers at him. They almost believe that they are more "moral" or "loving" than God.
Yet, in their ways, I believe that they are guilty of doing the very same thing that Job's friends were guilty of doing. They are trying to rationalize their perceptions and attributions of God and what they perceive flows from Him -- justice, love, morality, etc. They question how a "loving God" can let babies get sick and die OR send human beings to hell for eternity. Yet, God never needed to consult us at the creation of our universe.
The "I AM" created a temporal universe that was filled with laws (physically natural and spiritually supernatural) and consequences. Yet, because of love, God sent his Son -- a very part of himself -- into the world that he made in this temporal universe to become a sacrifice that would provide a means that can free us from both the inflexible laws and the consequences derived from it. We simply must believe that HE IS and that He is a rewarder of those who DILIGENTLY SEEK HIM.
A person cannot be saved without calling upon the Name of the Lord. The very verdict from our Day of Judgment itself is tantamount upon this. It's why the Book of Life exists.
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Christopher
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| | 2023/5/18 13:39 | Profile | BranchinVINE
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Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 1268
Australia
| | Re: | |
Quote:
Jade, people go to hell because they love sin and prefer darkness, not because they haven't heard the gospel.
Nigel, if you had lived before Christ’s first coming, would you be able to go to heaven? Or would you also become one of the vast number of people that many Christians consign to hell because they are fiercely adamant that heaven's gates are firmly shut once time ends and eternity begins?
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Jade
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| | 2023/5/22 8:53 | Profile | BranchinVINE
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Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 1268
Australia
| | Re: | |
Hi narrowpath
Quote:
Truth is vested in the person of Jesus Christ. The truth of eternal and everlasting punishment is foundational and taking this away makes me wonder how one can believe the other foundational truths...
Gen. 2:16 –
The Lord God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”
This is foundational scripture.
God told Adam he would die, not that he would be condemned to everlasting “punishment”. How do you explain this?
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Jade
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| | 2023/5/22 9:14 | Profile | ChrisA
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Joined: 2022/7/8
Posts: 131
| | Re: | | I can't believe you're asking such basic questions, Jade. I'm sure you already know the answer to these. Being purely rhetorical then? |
| | 2023/5/22 9:40 | Profile | BranchinVINE
Member
Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 1268
Australia
| | Re: | |
Absolutely not.
It is a matter of truth or lie.
And my answers may not be your answers.
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Jade
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| | 2023/5/22 9:46 | Profile | drifter
Member
Joined: 2005/6/6
Posts: 1025
Campbell River, B.C.
| | Re: | | It seems to me you have a wrong concept of man's sinfulness. The Holy Spirit's work is to convict people of sin and show them it is "exceedingly sinful" (Romans 7:13), it is hateful to God and a blight on the universe, poisoning everything it touches.
In the universalist view, it seems, man is not all that bad, he's just made a couple of mistakes, and the mean, vengeful, cruel god wants to send them to hell forever?! It was just a couple of swear words, just a white lie or two! Surely nothing worthy of spiritual death! At the worst, god should just let me burn off my sins in purgatory for a couple hundred years, tops, and let me graciously into heaven.
What absolute nonsense.
Jade, christians don't "consign" anyone to hell. Sinners hate the light and will not come to it; they bring condemnation on themselves. In stubborn hardheartedness, they reject mercy time and again, heaping up righteous wrath on their heads. God is not willing that they should perish, but He will not force His will on free moral agents.
In the Old Testament era, people were born again, or regenerated, if you like, the same way we are today. Some people were even filled with the Holy Spirit before Pentecost. And salvation has come to people the same way right from the start of human history, by grace through faith. The only difference being the Old Testament saints didn't see the full picture like we do, having the full canon of scripture. The law was only given to show people that they are sinners in need of forgiveness. All of the animal sacrifices and rituals were only a type and shadow of New Covenant promises.
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Nigel Holland
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| | 2023/5/22 13:03 | Profile | CofG
Member
Joined: 2017/2/12
Posts: 964
Cambodia
| | Re: | | Hebrews 4 makes clear that anyone who hardens their heart "today" will never enter his rest. Since all means all, certainly, never means never.
Just so everyone is aware, UR in many circles holds that Satan and the fallen angels will likewise be in heaven one day as "all" created things are reconciled to God through Jesus' suffering. Those who hold to this view have to because the fundamental argument is that God was reconciling "all" things through Christ in Colossians 1:15. To be internally consistent, all is all, including demons and Satan. But apparently, Never is not Never as Hebrew 4 makes clear.
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Robert
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| | 2023/5/22 19:24 | Profile | BranchinVINE
Member
Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 1268
Australia
| | Re: | |
Nigel,
God hates sin and so do I.
Ps. 5:4 –
For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness;
No evil dwells with You.
Ps. 15:1-2 –
O Lord, who may abide in Your tent?
Who may dwell on Your holy hill?
He who walks with integrity, and works righteousness,
And speaks truth in his heart.
Quote:
The Holy Spirit's work is to convict people of sin and show them it is "exceedingly sinful"
So how can people be convicted of sin before Pentecost?
Quote:
In the universalist view, it seems, man is not all that bad, he's just made a couple of mistakes………just a couple of swear words, just a white lie or two! Surely nothing worthy of spiritual death!
That is not my view.
There is none righteous, not even one (Rom. 3:10-18). Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor. 15:50).
Quote:
………the mean, vengeful, cruel god wants to send them to hell forever?!
God is certainly not that.
Adam’s fall from God was a great tragedy. God did not act to punish Adam and his descendants forever in anger. On the contrary, God so LOVED the WORLD He gave His only begotten Son, NOT TO JUDGE the WORLD BUT that the WORLD might be SAVED through Him. (Caps for emphasis).
Quote:
At the worst, god should just let me burn off my sins in purgatory for a couple hundred years, tops, and let me graciously into heaven.
Not that.
The Father waits for every prodigal son to leave the misery and torment of the existence in sin and darkness to return to the joy and peace and exceedingly abundant life in the Father’s house (Luke 15:11-32).
The Saviour of the WORLD (1 John 4:14), the Good Shepherd, will search for every lost sheep and bring them home (Luke 15:3-7).
The gates of God’s eternal city will never be closed (Rev. 21:25).
Quote:
In the Old Testament era, people were born again, or regenerated, if you like, the same way we are today. Some people were even filled with the Holy Spirit before Pentecost. And salvation has come to people the same way right from the start of human history, by grace through faith. The only difference being the Old Testament saints didn't see the full picture like we do, having the full canon of scripture. The law was only given to show people that they are sinners in need of forgiveness. All of the animal sacrifices and rituals were only a type and shadow of New Covenant promises.
This is a big topic.
Abraham was the father of faith. The Lord Jesus said that Abraham rejoiced to see His day.
But it is written:
Heb. 11:39 –
And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised,
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Jade
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| | 2023/5/23 12:42 | Profile |
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