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CofG
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Joined: 2017/2/12
Posts: 964
Cambodia

 Re:

If sanctification is real as a condition to seeing the Lord, then universalism can't be. If we deliberately go on sinning after receiving a knowledge of the truth there is a point where repentance is not granted by the Lord ( Hebrews 10 )and one only has a "fearful" expectation of judgement. Not sure why this universalism debate isn't over at that point but, some people hold onto their biases ( which is idolatry ) and can lead many astray with their unstable and untaught doctrines. Jesus used warnings to create fear even with his best friends who were told they must not deny him by failing to proclaim what he gave them. Likewise, he told them they would be thrown into the lake of fire if they stopped doing the work he gave them to do. Inconceivable that he would so warn his friends but gladly welcome the rest of the world that denied him from the start, never loved him and never obeyed him.

Todd, this is a dangerous parlor game or is an intellectual exercise in wisdom from below. Either way, please stop. By undercutting the warnings of God, you are gutting a primary means of God waking men up from spiritual deadness or spiritual sleep.


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Robert

 2023/5/16 19:10Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

I don’t think you understand that Universal Reconciliation does not do away with a hell of torment. This view holds that the vast majority of humanity must go there, just like the traditional view. Many will spend eons there. Some perhaps less. They will be there as long as they need to be.

So the apathy argument doesn’t wash. If I was a proponent of UR, I would not want any friends or loved ones or even acquaintances to spend even one day in torment.

A proponent of UR says that God’s punishments are always remedial, never vindictive.

The whole idea that God would torment someone for all eternity for a lifetime of sin seems so hard to justify. And there are so many persons that don’t have realistic opportunities for salvation. I would submit God’s wrath can be justified by 100,000 years of torment. It needn’t last for all eternity. Jesus died to reconcile *all things* to Himself. How can all things be reconciled to Himself if 40 quadrillion years from now the vast majority of humanity He created is still burning in agony? Remember this is Jesus we are talking about here.


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Todd

 2023/5/16 19:27Profile
CofG
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Joined: 2017/2/12
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 Re:

You and I discussed eternal torment some time ago and after trading scripture verses you said then that eternal life and eternal torment seemed strongly linked together. Again, now we always seem to return to your view that God would never do that because of his character. No one can argue you out of your human wisdom. There is no reason for the lake of fire to burn forever if it’s purpose has been served in a relatively short period of time unless you think the demons don’t likewise deserve Jesus’ mercy as you seem to think His character demands for humans who likewise “hate” him which is Scriptural.


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Robert

 2023/5/16 19:35Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
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 Re:

“Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?” Gen. 18:25.

God did not tell Abraham that his sense of “rightness” was out of whack.


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Todd

 2023/5/16 19:59Profile
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Joined: 2017/2/12
Posts: 964
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 Re:

He will do right in his eyes. Among men, even good men, they tend to view things from what seems right and good in their own eyes. That isn’t often just a sincere mistake but rather it is judging things and God from their own decisions of what is good and what is evil. Whatever God does is good and right by definition. Our ideas of good and right must bow. Otherwise, God would have to conform to our definitions of good and right. We must be careful not to project onto God ourselves, our character, reasonings, desires and biases. That is spiritually dangerous for the projector.


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Robert

 2023/5/16 20:30Profile
CofG
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Joined: 2017/2/12
Posts: 964
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 Re:

One other point Todd,

Paul says he was a-minister of reconciliation and also a minister of the new covenant. Assuming they are the same, then the reconciliation is achieved for those who are born again and in the new covenant in his blood. Hope that helps.


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Robert

 2023/5/16 23:24Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
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Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re:

Hi TMK,

Quote:

The whole idea that God would torment someone for all eternity for a lifetime of sin seems so hard to justify. And there are so many persons that don’t have realistic opportunities for salvation. I would submit God’s wrath can be justified by 100,000 years of torment. It needn’t last for all eternity. Jesus died to reconcile *all things* to Himself. How can all things be reconciled to Himself if 40 quadrillion years from now the vast majority of humanity He created is still burning in agony? Remember this is Jesus we are talking about here.


In a previous topic discussion, I think that I brought up the point that eternity is not measured by years or even time at all. Scientists often point out that "time" itself is an illusion in our universe because of relativity. It moves differently relative to the influence of things like mass, acceleration and gravity.

The eternity that we think of is not a realm constrained by our finite universe's laws of physics. We often think of time as a measurement which travels along a two-dimensional axis (line) -- with only past and present with our position only being called "now." Yet, in eternity, there really isn't a need for any measurement of time at all.

My feeble attempt at a point is to say that eternal punishment is not measured in years, centuries, millennia, ages, epochs, eras, eons, etc. By its very nature, it is eternal -- an everlasting state of "now." It's a non-temporal state of being. After the universe (i.e., "the heavens and the earth") are passed away, the notion of time is as well.

This is difficult for our minds to grasp given our state of being is entirely set on a physical universe's temporal plane. Our entire lives are measured by time. Even speed is measured by distance divided by time. Dr. Einstein pointed out the relativity of time -- something by which all modern science, engineering and exploration is indebted.

So, personally, I think that it is important to think of "eternal damnation" or "eternal punishment" being unconstrained by measurements of time. No where in Scripture do we see a "you've served your time" concept even hinted at in Scripture.

The UR argument almost sounds like a "purgatory" type of concept. This simply isn't found in Scripture. While it is a concept possibly hinted at once in the Apocrypha (in 2 Maccabbees 12:41-45); yet, even this is highly speculative and even comes when the Jews at that time were highly influenced by rabbinic literature, the Babylonian Talmud and recent traditions rather than solely upon the Law and the Prophets.

There just aren't any clear passages from the Scriptures as a whole that speak of a temporary punishment for fallen man. But, there are plenty of passages that speak of the eternal nature of damnation.

Consequently, I believe that there is a danger with trying to conceptualize God thinking like "benevolent" man rather than man accepting the infinite supremacy of God. C.S. Lewis mentioned that this was one of the concepts that was something of an obstacle toward actually believing in God or the Bible -- because he thought that God seems to be a "villain" if he permitted eternal damnation. He eventually overcame that roadblock and came to believe.

There is something to be said about "faith." We must believe that:
1.) HE IS; and,
2.) HE IS a rewarder of those who diligently seek him.

That reward is not temporary either.


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Christopher

 2023/5/17 1:38Profile
deogloria
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Joined: 2020/2/12
Posts: 393


 Re:

If we would spend more time on Evangelism then discussing Universalism, (and all sorts of other -isms) maybe we could still make a bit of a difference in this fallen world.
Untold people are suffering and dying without knowing the Lord.
The whole Bible is about Christ, His Bride, The Gospel, His blessings and his judgement.
"Notice how God is both kind and severe. He is severe toward those who disobeyed, but kind to you if you continue to trust in his kindness. But if you stop trusting, you also will be cut off." (Romans 11:22, NLT)

Markus

 2023/5/17 2:19Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

Chris- you may be right.

But perhaps then preachers should stop using the rhetoric of unrepentant sinners burning forever and ever and ever in hell.

Like I’ve said before I am not a proponent of UR, but I don’t like to see it bashed for being “unscriptural”. It is very hard to adequately make the biblical case in a forum like this and I haven’t really attempted to do so. Believe it or not, a strong biblical case can be made, at least as strong as that for the traditional view but perhaps not as strong as for unconditional immortality, for which a very strong biblical case can be made.

If the traditional view is correct, then there is a lot about it that we cannot grasp or understand.


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Todd

 2023/5/17 6:40Profile
ChrisA
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Joined: 2022/7/8
Posts: 131


 Re:

Todd, we will be outside time as we know it when we leave this mortal coil. We will be in a permanent "I am" state, be it "I am with Christ in glory" or "I am in hellish torment." Here is where eternal security or eternal damnation is. It is a permanent state, not a place of time progression. It simply IS.

 2023/5/17 17:11Profile





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