| Poster | Thread | BranchinVINE
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Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 1159
Australia
| | Re: | |
Nigel,
THE UNPARDONABLE SIN
This thread is not about the unpardonable sin so I won’t digress.
But let me ask you this in connection with what you said:
Countless people have died without hearing the gospel and without knowing Christ and the Holy Spirit. Have they committed the unpardonable sin?
Quote:
Why would the apostles endure what they did, being stoned, beaten, shipwrecked, imprisoned and starved if all people were going to be saved anyway? It makes no sense.
They suffered for Christ and the Kingdom of God.
With the coming of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost, the Kingdom of God was inaugurated on earth.
They were Christ’s witnesses and preached the Kingdom of God and Jesus is Lord. As more and more people turned from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, the Kingdom of God expanded on earth.
There is opposition from the kingdom of darkness.
Paul said:
Eph. 6:12 –
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.
But Jesus is Lord!
2 Cor. 4:7-11 –
But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, so that the surpassing greatness of the power will be of God and not from ourselves; we are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not despairing; persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed; always carrying about in the body the dying of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body. For we who live are constantly being delivered over to death for Jesus’ sake, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh.
Isa. 9:7 –
There will be NO END to the increase of His government or of peace.
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Jade
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|  2023/5/16 9:56 | Profile | drifter
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Joined: 2005/6/6
Posts: 948
Campbell River, B.C.
| | Re: | | Jade, people go to hell because they love sin and prefer darkness, not because they haven't heard the gospel.
The unforgivable sin is clearly in a category all its own: it is attributing the work of the Holy Spirit to the devil; this is caused by a deliberate, persistent hardening of the heart and a refusal to heed the conviction of the Holy Spirit.
The scriptures make it very clear: whoever commits this sin will never be forgiven in this life. They will also never be forgiven in the world to come. Never means never. Not ever. Under no circumstances.
My point about the apostles suffering and dying for the gospel is this: if they knew that all people would be reconciled regardless of what they did, even if they were an unrepentant mass murderer or serial pedophile, say, then why bother to preach the gospel, much less suffer for it? Just to give people a better life here on earth?
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Nigel Holland
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| | 2023/5/16 12:37 | Profile | drifter
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Joined: 2005/6/6
Posts: 948
Campbell River, B.C.
| | Re: | | And it seems that a lot of eisegesis is used to try to make those texts seem "universalist."
1 John 2:4, for example. Jesus shed His blood to forgive us of our sins. Hallelujah! But He also OFFERS his atoning blood to an unbelieving world. They have the choice to accept or reject it. But He did shed it for them.
1 Corinthians 15:28. Wesley notes: "Shall deliver up the mediatorial kingdom. That the three-one God may be all in all - All things, (consequently all persons,) without any interruption, without the intervention of any creature, without the opposition of any enemy, shall be subordinate to God." It looks like you're reading into the "all in all" statement. It doesn't mean that all will be saved; it is talking about God's rulership and dominion over creation.
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Nigel Holland
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| | 2023/5/16 12:50 | Profile | narrowpath
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Joined: 2005/1/9
Posts: 1443
Germany NRW
| | Re: | | Hi Jade, the scriptures I mentioned all speak about a final eternal and everlasting punishment. The evidence is overwhelming, allowing for no other interpretation. You do not want to believe that, therefore no matter how many scriptures I mention, it will not convince you. Truth only works if it is revealed to the spirit in a man.
Truth is vested in the person of Jesus Christ. The truth of eternal and everlasting punishment is foundational and taking this away makes me wonder how one can believe the other foundational truths...
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| | 2023/5/16 14:17 | Profile | drifter
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Joined: 2005/6/6
Posts: 948
Campbell River, B.C.
| | Re: | | "Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment." Hebrews 6:1,2
The doctrine of eternal judgment is included in the list of foundational articles of faith, right in there with repentance and faith.
All universalist arguments stem from sentiment and human reasoning, totally misunderstanding God's character and hatred of sin, and isolated scriptures taken out of context.
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Nigel Holland
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| | 2023/5/16 15:18 | Profile | TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6468
NC, USA
| | Re: | | Most evangelicals don’t **really** believe that the vast majority of humanity will end up in never-ending torment. Not *really*.
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Todd
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| | 2023/5/16 15:29 | Profile | drifter
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Campbell River, B.C.
| | Re: | | I really don't care what the majority thinks. Truth is not determined by popular vote. The very fact that the majority of people (and allegedly the majority of evangelicals) reject this truth only confirms its validity, in my mind.
And Todd, yes, I **really** do believe it.
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Nigel Holland
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| | 2023/5/16 16:04 | Profile | TMK
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Posts: 6468
NC, USA
| | Re: | | You missed my point. Almost every evangelical says they believe but hardly any *truly* believe it.
If evangelicals truly believed this doctrine the USA and likely the world would not be the state it is now.
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Todd
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| | 2023/5/16 17:17 | Profile | ChrisA
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Joined: 2022/7/8
Posts: 104
| | Re: | | Todd wrote: "If evangelicals truly believed this doctrine the USA and likely the world would not be the state it is now."
The Bible tells us that Noah was a preacher of righteousness, yet only his wife, sons, and their wives got into the ark, along with the animals God brought to them.
We can't blame Noah for the state of the ancient world. The thoughts of men were continually evil, we are told. Likewise, the current state of the world does not reflect poorly upon followers of Jesus Christ. It was prophesied millennia ago that the world would be judged again - not with water, but by fire. |
| | 2023/5/16 18:24 | Profile | drifter
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Joined: 2005/6/6
Posts: 948
Campbell River, B.C.
| | Re: | | I caught the undercurrent of your thought. Many (professing) christians live in a way that makes it seem like they don't care whether people go to hell or not. Might I suggest that if people do live this way, if they don't pray for the lost and tell them about Jesus at every available opportunity, they don't really believe? Isn't the Bible quite clear about this?
Could it be also that doctrines like universalism (in whatever form, they all come to the same thing) cause spiritual laziness and apathy because people don't feel the need to evangelize?
Remember, the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. "But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him!" Luke 12:5
"Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men..." 1 Corinthians 5:11
"It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." Hebrews 10:31
Not very fearful if I can just juke my way into heaven...
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Nigel Holland
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| | 2023/5/16 18:31 | Profile |
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