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drifter
Member



Joined: 2005/6/6
Posts: 1025
Campbell River, B.C.

 Re:

"And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils. And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end. No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house. Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation: Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit." Mark 3:22-30

"And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven." Luke 12:10

"Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." Matthew 12:31,32

Part of Jesus' ministry was healing people and casting out demons. It was obvious to anyone who saw Him perform miracles that He was doing it by the power of the Holy Spirit. The unforgivable sin is when one hardens his heart against God (it can't be done on a whim or by accident), and stubbornly, obstinately resists the Holy Spirit, and attributes His work to the devil.


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Nigel Holland

 2023/5/15 12:51Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

//The unforgivable sin is when one hardens his heart against God (it can't be done on a whim or by accident), and stubbornly, obstinately resists the Holy Spirit, and attributes His work to the devil.//

Isn’t this true if any persistent non-believer?


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Todd

 2023/5/15 13:23Profile
drifter
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Joined: 2005/6/6
Posts: 1025
Campbell River, B.C.

 Re:

Todd, if it were true of every persistent non believer, then you must concede that every single unrepentant person people must either, 1. Suffer in hell eternally with no chance of forgiveness or, 2. Cease to exist.

So much for the protestant purgatory where people "burn off" their sins and God eventually lets them into heaven.


_________________
Nigel Holland

 2023/5/15 14:24Profile
drifter
Member



Joined: 2005/6/6
Posts: 1025
Campbell River, B.C.

 Re:

Plus, Jesus said that people that commit this sin can't even be forgiven of it while they are alive.


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Nigel Holland

 2023/5/15 14:26Profile
narrowpath
Member



Joined: 2005/1/9
Posts: 1522
Germany NRW

 Re: everlasting punishment

Hi Jade, you know these scriptures, there is overwhelming evidence for eternal punishment in hell without remedy, just take scriptures literal. These are all compatible with an all merciful God who sent his son to suffer and die for our sins. If sinners reject the offer of forgiveness, God will simply confirm the sinners choice and let him bear the reward for sinning against and infinitely holy God who made all necessary provisions for everyone to get saved. Now if they refuse to take the offer, it is their choice, they perfer eternal punishment over forgiveness and here they go to the hell of their choice. Look how hell is glorified in heavy metal lyrics, how brazenly man and women long to go to this terrible place. They prefer hell where they can continue cursing God. The very thought of going to heaven and praising God is worse then hell for the reprobate. They say with Elon Musk that they are OK to go there.

The stakes are enormous, the reward immeasurable, the punishment unbearable, to the one a smell of life, to the other to death. Those who believe Christ will enter into eternal bliss, for those who reject it, it were better they were never born. It was Mount Sinai or mount Ebal, choose life or death, Now I in Christ and Christ in me forever or I will be forever cursed and tormented before the eyes of the lamb who conquered all. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hand of the living God and abide under His righteous wrath.

Matthew 5:29-30
If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.

This is why we must preach the Gospel to all creature.

Matthew 18:9
If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell.

Matthew 5:29
If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

Matthew 10:28
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew 5:22
But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘You good-for-nothing,’ shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.

Matthew 7:13
Verse Concepts
“Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.

Matthew 18:8
“If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire.

Matthew 25:46
These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Matthew 12:32
Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

Mark 9:47-48
If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell, where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9
dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

Revelation 20:10
And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Matthew 25:31-33
“But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

Luke 13:24-28
“Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, ‘Lord, open up to us!’ then He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know where you are from.’ Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets’;read more.
Matthew 13:42
and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:41
“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

Revelation 19:20

And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.

2 Peter 2:4
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;

Matthew 23:33
Verse Concepts
You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?

Revelation 20:13-15
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Matthew 8:12
but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Revelation 20:14
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

Jude 5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their [c]proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the [d]vengeance of eternal fire.

Matthew 13:47-50
“Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet cast into the sea, and gathering fish of every kind; and when it was filled, they drew it up on the beach; and they sat down and gathered the good fish into containers, but the bad they threw away. So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous,read more.
Luke 16:19-31
“Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day. And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man’s table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores.read more.
Revelation 14:9-11
Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

Luke 16:23
In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.

 2023/5/15 14:48Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

//Todd, if it were true of every persistent non believer, then you must concede that every single unrepentant person people must either, 1. Suffer in hell eternally with no chance of forgiveness or, 2. Cease to exist.

So much for the protestant purgatory where people "burn off" their sins and God eventually lets them into heaven.//

All this shows is that you don’t have any idea what blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is. But don’t feel bad, no one does for sure. Nor does anyone know what He meant when He said “or the age to come.”

It’s not the best verse to negate Universal Reconciliation, nor are the ones sited by NP. Admittedly on the surface they seem to do so.

“Universalism" as currently conceived seems to be the view that everyone will automatically end up in heaven ---- no relation to their life or manner of living. The Universalist-Unitarian Church is probably the most liberal church in Christendom. It is filled with atheists and other humanists. Evangelicals who hold to the view of Universal Reconciliation try to avoid the appellation "universalist". Those who will be in Gehenna, the Lake of Fire, will have to repent and submit to the authority of Christ in order to be acceptable to God ---- just like the rest of us.

Some Scriptures Concerning the Reconciliation of All Things to God:

Colossians 1:19,20 For in him all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.
Ephesians 1:9,10 For he has made known to us in all wisdom and insight the secret of his will, according to his purpose which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fulness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
Romans 5:18 Then as one man’s trespass [Adam’s] led to condemnation for all people, so one man’s act of righteousness [Christ’s] leads to acquittal and life for all people.
Philippians 2:9-11 Therefore God has highly exalted him [Christ] and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
I Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.
Revelation 5:12-13 And I heard every created being in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all therein, saying, "To him who sits upon the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might into the ages of ages.
Romans 11:32 For God has consigned all people to disobedience, that he may have mercy upon all.
Philippians 3:20,21 But our commonwealth is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will change our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power which enables him even to subject all things to himself.
1 Corinthians 15:22-28 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. "For God has put all things in subjection under his feet." But when it says, "All things are put in subjection under him," it is plain that he is excepted who put all things under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things under him, that God may be everything to every one.


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Todd

 2023/5/15 18:36Profile
drifter
Member



Joined: 2005/6/6
Posts: 1025
Campbell River, B.C.

 Re:

I've seen you use this tactic many times, Todd; to muddy the water and say "no one knows for sure."

I do know what blaspheming the Holy Spirit is. It is not hard to figure it out. Jesus wouldn't warn us to not do it if it couldn't be done.

If you look at the verses you posted out of context, yes, they can look like all people will be saved. But taken in context with the rest of the Bible, salvation is conditional, some are elected by God's foreknowledge to salvation, some will be damned.

Why would the apostles endure what they did, being stoned, beaten, shipwrecked, imprisoned and starved if all people were going to be saved anyway? It makes no sense.

The rich man certainly seemed repentant, or at least remorseful, when he talked to Abraham. Why didn't Jesus swoop down and rescue him the moment he asked for a drop of water to cool his tongue? I think if you offered to get him out of hell he would take you up on it.


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Nigel Holland

 2023/5/15 19:07Profile
CofG
Member



Joined: 2017/2/12
Posts: 964
Cambodia

 Re:

Brothers and Sisters,

A sincere and loving question for two threads running now on the forum:

Do those who desire to be saved need, in an essential way, to flee sin and chase after holiness, to make every effort and make it their goal to pursue perfection, and to make every effort to add in increasing measure godliness, in faith upon the in dwelling Spirit and God’s promises ? And conversely, does laziness in such effort and failure to pursue with focus and every effort result in not being saved.

Lest the reply is made that this is human works, please know the cross and the new covenant in his blood is God’s provision that makes this goal and prize the path of salvation possible and gives assurance when this race is run that entry into heaven is provided.

Universalism is precluded by this doctrine of Christ in me by the blood of the covenant as the source and provision towards salvation. Also, His keeping is in essence, His making me holy, perfect, mature and Christlike which is complete when the sons of Glory are revealed upon receipt at-the final consummation when we receive glorious resurrected bodies, when we see Him face to face Those with a good recall of Scripture, will recognize that every word in this post is a summary in close approximation to many verses only listed in a connected way.


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Robert

 2023/5/15 21:35Profile
BranchinVINE
Member



Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 1268
Australia

 Re:


Robert,

Quote:
Universalism is precluded by this doctrine of Christ in me by the blood of the covenant as the source work and provision towards salvation.



1 John 2:4 –
and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

John 1:29 –
Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Cor. 15:28 –
When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

NOTE: SO THAT GOD MAY BE ALL IN ALL.


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Jade

 2023/5/16 9:48Profile
BranchinVINE
Member



Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 1268
Australia

 Re:


narrowpath,

The scripture verses you gave do mention hell but they do NOT say that there will be no universal reconciliation.

The scripture verses Todd gave point to universal reconciliation.


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Jade

 2023/5/16 9:49Profile





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