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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : The Living Stones of New Jerusalem

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ChrisA
Member



Joined: 2022/7/8
Posts: 131


 Re:

Joseph lived in a land of giant pyramids, Ezekiel saw a wheel within a wheel, but when John saw a giant cube I guess it was too much for some of us to take at face value.

I regard New Jerusalem as the dwelling place of the redeemed in Christ, collectively known as "the Bride." Why? Abraham "looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God" (Hebrews 11:10). Paul wrote in Galatians 4:26, "But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all." These verses refer to locations. Even Revelation 21:17 describes a wall of only 144 cubits (216 feet) tall surrounding New Jerusalem. It is the measure of the city as 12,000 furlongs (stadion or stadia in Greek) which makes some stagger and others to balk. Regardless of the city's measurements, the walls have gates, and "the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day..." (Rev. 21:24b-25a). This clearly speaks of entry and exiting. How could that be if New Jerusalem were merely symbolic of redeemed saints?

Chuck Smith, in his verse by verse notes on Revelation (via blueletterbible.org) opined that this 1400 mile cube (I thought it was 1500) will float around the earth, being the size of the moon. Sounds a bit sci-fi to me. :)

In the end, scale does not throw me. After all, our God is infinitely larger than His creation.

 2023/3/17 7:09Profile
JFW
Member



Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 2009
Dothan, Alabama

 Re: Chris

(For me) the “measurements” in Rev are accurate tho the writings are allegorical…. Again Genesis was written to be taken literally, Rev was written to be taken allegorically, which is to say a specific language was employed to symbolically articulate a series of progressive steps towards and ultimately to, unification of God the Father dwelling on (new) earth with His people in His Kingdom, ie; the body of Christ.

If you would like another biblical reference for this,…
Consider the angel with the reed of measurement, we find the same in Ezekiel 47 (1st portion) with the literal division of land (inheritance of Israel , see also Rom 11) .

Again the angel tells John in Rev, that which you saw as ____ is actually _____
Jesus isn’t literally going to marry a single individual (bride), likewise the two witnesses in Rev 11 aren’t actually olive trees or even persons with literal swords or fires shooting out of their mouths slaying people….

It’s inconsistent, at best, to take Rev literally when it wasn’t intended to be, while we aren't taking Genesis literally which was 🤷🏽‍♂️

Edit to add: the earth according to Genesis has a literal firmament (fixed and firm) yet the “pillars” spoken of by Job and Samuel are metaphorical for foundation or core material with the connotation of position. In all cases it (creation) is presented exclusively and literally as “geo centric” again with actual, literal, historic events testifying to this fact -


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Fletcher

 2023/3/17 8:03Profile
JFW
Member



Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 2009
Dothan, Alabama

 Re: Jade

Yes Amen 🙏🏻

Now to your petition… Paul does quite a good bit of work to abridge the plan, doing so by contrasting one with the other all while providing an order, or sequence of events culminating in vs 50-58.

Perhaps taking the “overview” of the events in Rev as the “ways”, with 1Cor15
being the condensed or abridged version of the “means”….
Starting with vs 20 and with 25 referring to millennial reign and continuing from there until the end should help to provide context.
(note; Paul as he often does, uses contrast to illustrate what is sought of by God vs what man seeks after when he is not seeking the Kingdom)


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Fletcher

 2023/3/17 8:16Profile
narrowpath
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Joined: 2005/1/9
Posts: 1522
Germany NRW

 Re:

The book of Revelation is by definition a revelation.
Something that was hidden will be revealed.

There are things we can only understand as the Spirit reveals them as the time draws near.

There are things to be taken literally and others allegorical. Applying only one interpretation to the exclusion of the other does not help.

Revelation is obtained not by mere study, but by prayer, intimacy and obedience to the known commandments in scripture.
The scribes in Jesus day searched the scripture with rigour but alway got it wrong.
The prophesies about Christ birth were always there, but the could not decipher them.
On the other hand, Simon and Hannah went into the temple by revelation.
We should look at them as a patters for what it takes to receive revelation.
They were humble, faithful in observing the law. They had received a promise many years ago and hung on to it.
God observed their obedience and integrety over many decades . They proved themselves faithful in small things.
They practised fasting and kept themselves undefiled.

We are living in the last of the last days, I believe we are seeing the scene for the unfolding of the events in Revelation being set.
Only those who follow the footsteps of Moses, Daniel, Simon, Hannah will receive revelation. Those following Christ from afar will be overwhelmed and confused.

 2023/3/17 14:25Profile
ChrisA
Member



Joined: 2022/7/8
Posts: 131


 Re:

Thank you for some good, balanced responses, JFW and Narrowpath. Once more, on the matter of location, Jesus said to His disciples in John 14:2,3: "In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

I think that being with Christ in New Jerusalem will be awe inspiring, to say the least. Marvellous beyond words.

 2023/3/17 17:07Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re:

Hello,

I won't pretend to know (or understand) the full breadth of this passage in the Revelation. Is it literal? It is symbolism? Is it both literal and symbol? I cannot state with absolute certainty.

However, I will say that I each time that I've read through the entirety of the Book of the Revelation, I've always taken this particular passage as literal (although fully aware that it might be some sort of symbolism).

I think that it is important to remember the first verse (i.e., Revelation 21:1). It reads: "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more" (ESV).

This verse clearly states that the first "heaven" and the first "earth" had (past tense) passed away by the time John saw "a new heaven and a new earth."

This "heaven" ("ouranos" in Greek) is used to refer to a physical "heaven" (i.e., physical realm/universe) or "sky" (e.g., Matthew 3:16 "the HEAVENS were opened," Matthew 6:26 "fowls of the AIR,") as well as a spiritual heaven (e.g., Matthew 5:12 "great is your reward in heaven," Matthew 5:48 "your father who is in HEAVEN," etc.).

So, the measurement for this new Jerusalem occurs in this new heaven and earth. Whereas everything that happens from Genesis 1 until Revelation 21 occurred in our current universal realm, the events of Revelation 21 occur in our new realm.

It is conceivable (and obviously not outside the ability of God) to create a new heaven and a new earth where 1400 mile high city is unfathomable to our earthly minds yet completely within the power of God in any new eternal realm that He creates.

Later in the chapter, John implies that there is no longer a Sun or Moon -- because the light comes from God (possibly like it was in the days of creation before the creation of the Sun and Moon.

I'm not discounting the possibility of a symbolic basis for this passage (or the notion that it is both symbolic AND physical). I just feel that the measuring rod is something just as tangible as the tongs of the altar used by the seraphim to atone for Isaiah's unclean lips in Isaiah chapter 6.


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Christopher

 2023/3/18 1:39Profile
BranchinVINE
Member



Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 1268
Australia

 Re:


Quote:
The book of Revelation is by definition a revelation.
Something that was hidden will be revealed.



Comment:

The Revelation is the Revelation of Jesus Christ (Rev. 1:1).

The Church is the Body of Christ and therefore the Revelation of Christ would also include His Body.


Quote:
The scribes in Jesus day searched the scripture with rigour but alway got it wrong.



Comment:

It is because they would not see Jesus in the scripture and would not accept that the scriptures testify about Him


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Jade

 2023/3/18 3:03Profile
BranchinVINE
Member



Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 1268
Australia

 Re: 1Cor15


Thanks, Fletcher, for the explanation.


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Jade

 2023/3/18 3:06Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

//It is conceivable (and obviously not outside the ability of God) to create a new heaven and a new earth where 1400 mile high city is unfathomable to our earthly minds yet completely within the power of God in any new eternal realm that He creates.//

Of course God could do it. But doesn’t a cubic city seem kind of “blah” not to say impractical? Just doesn’t seem like something God would literally do as a dwelling place for all eternity. Because if it’s a literal cube then people must literally live in it. Nah, it has to be symbolic of the perfection of the bride of Christ, as Jade has laid out. There is also description of streets of gold etc which does not make sense in the context of a cubic city.


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Todd

 2023/3/18 10:39Profile
narrowpath
Member



Joined: 2005/1/9
Posts: 1522
Germany NRW

 Re:

If God mentiones measurements, then it cannot be an abstract thing.

If you struggle with the literal heavenly Jerusalem as described in Rev 21, how about the other wonders of God like creation, the flood, the 10 plagues, the passing through the red sea, Christ's crucifixion, the ressurection of the dead and Christs visible return to the whole earth for all men to see?

The heroes in Hebrews 11 endured all their trouble because they longed to enter this city you call "impractical" and even "blah". I would be very afraid to say such a thing.

 2023/3/18 11:23Profile





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