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Discussion Forum : General Topics : The rapture of the church is not in early Christian literature and go against the creeds

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staff
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Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 2227


 Re:

Hi Docs and Delta
So can you show me on the posts where you have answered the very very simple question YES or No
Are the Noah and Lot Prophesies by Jesus the same event as 1 Thess 4:16????
Its a Yes or No answer ,their isnt another.
Both of you have been saying that you are experts on the subject and that you have the answers but cant or wont answer simple questions .The reason I suspect is that you know that the answer to this question doesnt fit in with an old wives tale called the Post Trib rapture.
There is no other explanation for it and I think everyone can see your avoidance.There is no other answer to the question ,they are either the same or they are not.I am on the record as saying they are more than likely the same event,
urs staff


 2022/4/12 18:01Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

The Lot and Noah comments by Jesus describe the general conditions in Palestine at the time of Jesus bringing judgment to Jerusalem via the Roman armies in 70 AD. People will be carrying on as usual just as they were carrying on in the days before the earth was flooded and before brimstone rained down on the cities of the plain. They are unprepared because they did not heed the warning and flee when they saw Jerusalem surrounded by armies (Lk. 21:20-21). They are not taken in rapture; they are massacred and tossed in the burning rubbish heaps with untold thousands of their comrades by the Roman invaders (Lk. 17:37).

1 Thess. 4:16 describes the actual Second Coming, which is the only “catching up” of believers.


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Todd

 2022/4/12 18:36Profile
staff
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Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 2227


 Re:

Hi TMk
Not general specific,
They did eat ,drink ,sow ,plant etc,
They were very specific,
urs staff

 2022/4/12 19:32Profile
TrueWitness
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Joined: 2006/8/10
Posts: 661


 Re:

To those who are claiming that the harpazo (rapture) described in 1 Thess. 4:17 happens at the same time (exactly) as Christ's Second Coming, why in the world would the church float up into the air to meet Christ if He is coming down and landing on the Mt. of Olives? That makes ZERO sense. Just so you know, I do not believe in a pre-trib rapture. I happen to believe it happens after Babylon is destroyed as described in Revelation 18. And guess what. This is AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS just like Jesus said but before His Second Coming. And what happens in between? The Marriage Supper of the Lamb. How long does the Marriage Supper of the Lamb last. I suspect not that long. Most probably less than 6 months. I would think maybe a month. But in any case, not very long. I personally believe that after the last person to be saved is in fact saved, the church that is alive and the dead in Christ receive their glorified bodies (in the twinkling of an eye) and are taken into the Marriage Supper of the Lamb in heaven. Soon thereafter, Christ, the glorified church and the other hosts of heaven will follow Christ to reclaim the Earth for God.

Go look it up. The Marriage Supper of the Lamb occurs BEFORE Christ mounts His white horse and descends to Earth (the Second Coming). Rev. 19:6-10 describes the Marriage Supper of the Lamb having come. It gives no details except to say that blessed are those invited there. Then Rev. 19:11 and following describes Christ and the armies in heaven descending to Earth to judge it with much wrath. So obviously, the Marriage Supper is over because wrath and judgement isn't something that happens at a marriage celebration.

Again, this is how I interpret the Bible on eschatology and I am not dogmatic about it. I also don't feel ill-will toward people who are pre-trib or post-trib. I think that many will fall away because they believe in pre-trib and so I say, be prepared for His Coming at any time, like now and going forward regardless of what happens or doesn't happen. I myself was post-trib for a long time and enjoyed Left Behind or Led Astray documentary by Joe Schimmel whom I love dearly. I even got the long version of that video. He does a good job examining the history of how pre-trib came into being especially with Darby but also people who influenced Darby. My only problem with post-trib (and it isn't a problem that will cause any serious repercussions for those who believe it) is that the idea that we will rise up to meet the Lord in the air only to come back down to Earth is frankly, weird. Why was it so important to rise only to turn around and descend again? So blessings to all here in finding truth. What is more important than exactly when the Lord will come is whether we are ready for His coming. May the bride make herself ready because Jesus deserves the very best!

P.S. It just occurred to me that my position is also post-trib but is different from most post-tribbers because I believe that after the tribulation but before Jesus descends to Earth to judge it, the church is glorified and rises to heaven to celebrate the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. I don't want to be called mid-trib either. Read Rev. 19

-Daniel

 2022/4/12 20:53Profile
yulboum
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Joined: 2021/11/14
Posts: 82
Toronto

 Re:

Hi Staff,
Thanks for pointing that out.
Those two terms should be well defined and not mixed up.

The rapture is quite hard to understand with our own mind but let's keep on seeking the Lord Jesus and look forward for His return and I believe He will give us understanding and make us ready. In the meantime let's pray for each other that our faith will grow and love for one another will grow as we wait to be taken away because the world is obviously getting darker.

Shalom
Robert


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Yulboum Robert

 2022/4/12 22:39Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
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 Re:

//To those who are claiming that the harpazo (rapture) described in 1 Thess. 4:17 happens at the same time (exactly) as Christ's Second Coming, why in the world would the church float up into the air to meet Christ if He is coming down and landing on the Mt. of Olives?//

Because the Bride is rushing to welcome her Bridegroom who has finally returned in triumph, just like the bridesmaids in Mt. 25:1.


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Todd

 2022/4/13 7:03Profile
docs
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Joined: 2006/9/16
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 Re:

No one has been saying they are an expert on the issue. Scripture is the expert I believe, and I have become content to let it speak for itself in its simple and clear manner on this issue. It is a gift from the Lord it is so simple and it goes hand in hand with what the early church taught at the beginning and throughout church history until the 1830s. That is something pre-trib advocates seem to have a hard time acknowledging.

Like I said, your question is obviously a gotcha question that your emphatic obsession with has also been apparent to all. Plus, I answered albeit not in the way you desired. So, for the third time, if you factor in the timing of Matthew 24:29, you have your answer if the two two passages are the same. When do they occur? If you believe the error that Christ will come again twice, then it"s all moot and can be jimmyed around to fit one's preference.

Also, can you show a post where you have answered clearly what "after the tribulation of those days" means? It's meaning is simple and clear to me. That's all I meant to convey. What is its meaning in your opinion?

Blessings.


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David Winter

 2022/4/13 9:36Profile
Lysa
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Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3699
East TN for now!

 Re:


I lean 45 degrees onto the post-trib side and we go by Jesus words. Believing they both occur at the same time doesn't mean I'm pre-trib or anything of the sort.

The sad thing is that you are always and I mean ALWAYS telling us what post-tribbers believe even though you don't believe it. You are a hammer and you look for every single nail.

I think post-tribbers as well as pre-tribbers and everyone in between will all be surprised on that Day! And we'll know we were wrong but we'll be so elated to be in His presence that of course, we'll no longer be arguing about it!!

God bless,
Lisa


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Lisa

 2022/4/13 10:26Profile
staff
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Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 2227


 Re:

Hi Docs
You clearly didnt answer the question at all in any way .It was a yes or no question and they were the only answers.You were being delibrately obtuse.
If the myth of the Post Trib rapture is so easy to see as you say then you would have been able to answer yes or no.I answered my own question with a yes that its probably most likely the same event,I would say 99 percent yes.Whether its a gothca question is irrevelant you should be able to answer yes or no or I dont know .......
urs staff


Like I said, your question is obviously a gotcha question that your emphatic obsession with has also been apparent to all. Plus, I answered albeit not in the way you desired

 2022/4/13 13:20Profile
docs
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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2753


 Re:

staff,

I haven't cared to answer your gotcha question, it is obvious what you were up to. Although I did answer it albeit in a roundabout way.

I'm not trying to annoy you here by explaining it simply. But the post-trib view holds that, in agreement with Christ's own words, He will come again once "AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days" (Matt 24:29). However I may have failed in doing so, my point has been that I believe that it is not hard to understand. It should be taken in its straightforward simplicity it seems. When I say it's not complicated and is simple, that is not a know it all statement of condescension. If Christ is only going to come again ONCE and I Thess 4:16-17 etc. is speaking of the Lord coming for his people and the resurrection and the glorification of the saints, then it will have to occur after the tribulation of those days because that was Christ's own words regarding His coming. If we trust Christ's words, then the post-trib rapture is hardly a myth or an old wives tale in your words. In my opinion, the issue has become much more complicated than ever need be in spite of the God intended clarity scripture presents.

Thank you. Blessings.


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David Winter

 2022/4/13 17:15Profile





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