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BranchinVINE
Member



Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 902
Australia

 Re:



Elizabeth,

Guess we are not on the same page.

Can you give a concise summary of what you are saying?


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Jade

 2021/11/17 10:18Profile
BranchinVINE
Member



Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 902
Australia

 Re:


narrowpath,

Quote:

Here you have 6 x fire + 3 x hell:

Mark 9:43-48
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.




Read carefully again who are those going to hell.

How do you yourself measure up?

These are the words of Jesus:

Matt. 7:1-3 –
Do not judge so that you will not be judged.
For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.
Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?



Quote:
The problem occures when you quote scripture out of context.



Example?



Quote:

I am sorry to be so direct, sister, but this teaching can potentially lead others astray.



The Lord Jesus said:

John 12:32 –
“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

Can you give scripture that says your doctrine of eternal torment will lead people to Christ.



Quote:
If that weren't so, the cosmic drama of lost mankind and our crucified saviour would lose its meaning, because saints and reprobates will finally all end up in glory.



Were you not once a reprobate?

Christ died so that reprobates can become saints.


You are quick to condemn but Jesus prayed for those who crucified Him:

Luke 23:34 --
But Jesus was saying, “Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing.”



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Jade

 2021/11/17 10:22Profile
narrowpath
Member



Joined: 2005/1/9
Posts: 1238
Germany NRW

 Re:


Hi Jade, Jesus our saviour warned about hell in so many instances. The bible is very descript and open about it. You know the scriptures yourself but twist them to mean what they they don't mean.

Hell is a real place where all men who have not believed and repented go to suffer for eternity. When I read scriptures about hell, the Spirit witnesses to me that hell is a real and fearsome entitity reserved for all men unless they repent and believe.

If it weren't so, these scriptures would be meaningless. I am afraid you have settled in your mind what you want to believe about hell and no scripture would convince you at this point, so I will leave it here. It is one thing to believe these doctines and another to propagate them. I do not need to win an argument here, but I care for your soul, dear Jade.

I wonder if it is possible to be a disciple of Jesus without embracing the fact that I otherwise would deserve God's retributive punishment in an eternal hell.

 2021/11/17 11:29Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2014
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

In reading through this thread, a few thoughts come to mind.

First, as modern day believers, we so often settle into a doctrine and then read scripture through the eyes of that doctrine. And, our doctrine is often informed more by our modern culture than it is by the culture of Jesus' time.

For example, Jesus dealt almost exclusively with the Jews. In fact, He said in Matthew 15 that He was sent to the lost of the house of Israel. So when Jesus speaks, we must understand to whom He is speaking. The Jews understood the law and through it sought to gain righteousness. Jesus showed them time and time again that they were not righteous, but in sin and destined for Hell.

Paul was sent to the Gentiles. If you read His letters to Galatia, Colossi, and etc. you get a different feel altogether. So much so that many who call themselves Messianic believers are rejecting Paul's teachings altogether. Paul majors on the grace of God in a really big way.

(Side note: Grace has been, I think, poorly defined. It is the power of God, His anointing, to do in and through me what I cannot do myself. For example, I am saved by His power, not by my own works, etc..)

Another problem we have is that we make the consequence of our decision to be the goal of our decision. We have had the tendency to make salvation out to be primarily about making a decision that changes my eternal destination. So we major on the heat of Hell and the bliss of Heaven and try to either attract people to heaven or scare them out of Hell.

But the fact that I will wind up in Heaven or Hell is secondary. Salvation is about surrender to the King of Kings and entry into His kingdom. It is about knowing Him, about being at peace with Him, being made righteous, by the blood and sacrifice of Jesus Christ. It is more about entering into a relationship than anything else. Gaining Heaven and missing Hell are part of the package, but they are not the goal of the transaction. In other words, I will be with Him forever. Why is this awesome? Because I am with Him now and I cannot imagine it any other way. Not because I am simply relieved to be avoiding Hell.

So Jade makes some good points. The purpose of the Law for example.

I am not sure by reading the posts if what is being pushed is universalism. Universalism, by the way, is a damnable heresy in very plain terms. Not because of the heaven / hell issue. Jesus said that no man could come to Him except he first deny self, take up his cross, and follow Jesus. And we cannot be right with the Father without coming through the Son. And without knowing Him, we will not have eternal life.

What I am saying is that the focus is not Heaven vs. Hell and I don't think it ever was. Hell is VERY real. That is not even debatable for anyone who had even cursory knowledge of the Bible and the New Testament specifically. The question is, it seems to me, "Is Hell the motivating factor for salvation?" I agree with, I believe it was Todd, near the beginning of the thread. Fear of Hell should not be the primary motivating factor in salvation.

When Paul said in Romans that the gentiles showed the work of the law occurring in themselves even though they did not know the Mosaic law, he was saying that their condemnation and excusing of one another showed that they understood there was a standard they were not living up to. I have never met a person, so far, that did not have an innate understanding of their own destiny as a sinner. What they lacked was the solution to the problem they found themselves in. I think preaching about Hell (whether to a congregation of believer, which seems superfluous, or probably more in conversation with unbelievers) has an important function of helping a person realize the end consequence of their life's path. But it is not the driving force that brings them to Christ. Otherwise they are using Him to save their sorry hide so to speak rather than entering into relationship with Him to know Him.

Just my perspective. Hope it helps.


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Travis

 2021/11/18 8:14Profile
BranchinVINE
Member



Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 902
Australia

 Re:


Hi narrowpath,

Quote:
You know the scriptures yourself but twist them to mean what they they don't mean.



Example?



Quote:
It is one thing to believe these doctines and another to propagate them.



These Church Fathers held the doctrine of UNIVERAL RESTORATION:

Theophilus of Antioch (c. 120-190)
Clement of Alexandria (c. 150–215)
Origen (c. 184–253)
Athenagoras (133-190)
Gregory of Nyssa (c. 335–395)



Quote:
Hell is a real place where all men who have not believed and repented go to suffer for eternity.



These are already eternal truths/realities (which will be fully revealed at the end of time):

The Lamb of God has already taken away the sins of the *** world *** (1 John 2:2).

Christ has already taken away the debt ascribed to us in the decrees that stood against us. He had taken it away, nailing it to the cross (Col. 2:14).

Principalities and powers have already been disarmed (Col. 2:15).

All authority has already been given to the Lord Jesus in heaven and on earth (Matt. 28:18).

In Christ all will be made alive (1 Cor. 15:22).

All things will be subjected to Christ and God will be all in all (1 Cor. 15:28).



Quote:
I wonder if it is possible to be a disciple of Jesus without embracing the fact that I otherwise would deserve God's retributive punishment in an eternal hell.



It is the “self-life” that the Lord Jesus is against.

This is what He demands:

Luke 9:23-25 –
And He was saying to them all, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross daily and follow Me. For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake, he is the one who will save it. For what is a man profited if he gains the whole world, and loses or forfeits himself?”

It is the self-life that is enmity to God and must relinquished.

This is what we must embrace to be true disciples of Christ:

Gal. 2:20 –
I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

We are to be preoccupied with abiding in Christ.

John 15:5,8 –
I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing………… My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples.


The ministry of the Law is the ministry of condemnation, but the ministry of the Spirit is of righteousness (2 Cor. 3:7-9).

God has given the church a ministry of *** reconciliation ***.

2 Cor. 5:18-19 –
Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the *** ministry of reconciliation , namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation ***.



Quote:
I do not need to win an argument here, but I care for your soul, dear Jade.



It is not about winning any argument but to know the truth that sets us free.

I have a hope sure and steadfast in Jesus.

2 Tim. 1:8-10 –
…………the gospel according to the power of God, who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity, but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death, and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

V.12 –
…………for I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day.


Quote:
2 Tim. 1:12 –
…………for I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day.




_________________
Jade

 2021/11/18 10:15Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5955
NC, USA

 Re:

Travis-

I appreciate your post and agree with almost all it.

I don’t necessarily agree that the idea of “universalism” is a damnable heresy because there are different versions of what this means. That is why I was trying to get NP to explain what he meant by the term.

For example, the version that says everyone goes to heaven automatically regardless of belief and there is no hell etc is certainly heretical.

But the evangelical position called “Universal Reconciliation,” which has ample support in scripture, is not heretical. While I do not ascribe to this view, I have studied it extensively and I would call it “hopeful,” not heretical.


_________________
Todd

 2021/11/18 10:56Profile
narrowpath
Member



Joined: 2005/1/9
Posts: 1238
Germany NRW

 Re:

Universalism is synonym with "Universal Reconciliation".

I do not care about the so called church fathers, their statements bare no weight unless found in scripture. I have a father in heaven. Often they were wrong and some of their heresies prevail until today.

I say it again and do not mince my words. Universalism or "Universal Reconciliation" is a damnable heresy, because it gives people the illusion that hell is not eternal, God's wrath no longer exists and there is no retributive judgment and sin is not that serious and the fear of God is rejected as a pitiful state of mind.

This is the great dilemna of the 21st century church. You can draw huge crowds by protaying a nice soft God, overemphasizing grace and "unconditional love" and dismissing anything to do with holiness, fear of God, discipline, self-denial and bearing the cross, suffering and walking the narrow path, bearing reproach and taking up my cross daily.

I was once part of that movement, and I am glad I came out of it. Knowing the terror of the Lord and his hate for sin and his just wrath caused me to appreciate his love and grace more than ever before. No way back!



 2021/11/18 12:04Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5955
NC, USA

 Re:

George Whitfield was also a proponent of universal reconciliation as was William Law. To suggest these men did not know their Bible is a tad ridiculous.

NP - I am not saying you are wrong in your view about eternal torment. All I can say is that I hope you are, because I think it smears the character of God and makes Jesus the loser in his cosmic battle against the evil one.


_________________
Todd

 2021/11/18 12:11Profile
narrowpath
Member



Joined: 2005/1/9
Posts: 1238
Germany NRW

 Re:


[George Whitfield was also a proponent of universal reconciliation] Where do you find that??

William Law - I do not find evidence for that, he does talk about hell and damnation of souls.

[NP - I am not saying you are wrong in your view about eternal torment. All I can say is that I hope you are, because I think it smears the character of God and makes Jesus the loser in his cosmic battle against the evil one.]

This statement contradicts itself. You say I am not wrong but hope I am because it smears God's character?? Does God smear his own character??

 2021/11/18 12:53Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5955
NC, USA

 Re:

//Does God smear his own character??//

No! That’s sort of the point.

//[George Whitfield was also a proponent of universal reconciliation] Where do you find that??//

I misspoke about Whitfield. Sorry about that.


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Todd

 2021/11/18 14:29Profile





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