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ccchhhrrriiisss
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Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re:

Hi TMK,

That's an interesting thought -- but one that even physicists debate. We tend to think of time in spatial duration or as a "temporal" motion (always forward and never back being a rule by quantum physicists). It moves along a timeline.

Yet, eternity has no "timeline" in a sense. Earth and the created universe is separate from it. Even physicists ponder the mysteries of time during a "initial singularity." You can think of it like time progressing on a line in the universe but existing only as a state without it.

I spoke with one physicists from the SLAC last year regarding "time" (and specifically as it pertains to time dilation). He said that he sometimes goes to bed at night pondering and trying to fathom a pre or proto-universe without time.

That said: There is so much that we don't know about "time" let alone how it will exist in eternity. Even the most basic fundamental forces of nature (like gravity) are still a mystery to physicists. They seek a "grand unified theory" that could explain the discrepancies in the laws of physics.

The example you used is very good. John saw things yet to happen. He wasn't bound by the laws of physics (always forward and never back) because he went to see and view those things and return to himself at Patmos.

I sometimes feel that John was caught up into that eternal "state" of timelessness. People often debate whether John physically saw these things, saw a vision or whether he experienced both. I've wondered whether he was translated into the spirit and the eternal "now" where the limits and flow of time and the rest of the concepts of physics do not exist.

Ah, I digress!

My point isn't explicitly doctrinal or even a debate over the laws of physics. Rather, I simply want to inject in a discussion about eternity that there is so much that we don't know about time apart from the confines of our universe.

When we think about eternal damnation (regardless of all that is means), all that I want to do is implore others to "flee from the wrath to come" (Matthew 3:7). The best part of this is that all that is necessary to flee from that wrath is to repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.


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Christopher

 2021/12/4 13:12Profile
deltadom
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Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 2359
Hemel Hempstead

 Re:

If Hell is not Eternal then heaven is not eternal

https://biblehub.com/greek/strongs_166.htm

Matthew 18:8 Adj-ANS
GRK: πῦρ τὸ αἰώνιον
NAS: and be cast into the eternal fire.
KJV: to be cast into everlasting fire.
INT: fire eternal

Matthew 25:46 Adj-AFS
GRK: εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον
NAS: but the righteous into eternal life.
KJV: into life eternal.
INT: into life eternal


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Dominic Shiells

 2021/12/4 16:16Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

What do you mean by “eternal” Dom?


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Todd

 2021/12/4 17:34Profile
deltadom
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Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 2359
Hemel Hempstead

 Re:

I mean if we are eternally with jesus then those that go to hell must go to hell eternally. I mean for an infinite amount of time.


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Dominic Shiells

 2021/12/5 15:16Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

// I mean for an infinite amount of time.//

Ok- I just sure if you had read what Chris had written about “eternity.”


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Todd

 2021/12/5 16:24Profile
deltadom
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Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 2359
Hemel Hempstead

 Re:

I was referring to the greek word :)


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Dominic Shiells

 2021/12/5 16:43Profile
twayneb
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Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2256
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Temporary is the same word as temporal in 2 Cor. 4:18. It means toward a period of time, or for a period of time. That is why our world is temporal. It exists as long as time exists. But there comes a point when time is no more. Time itself will come to an end.

We interpret the terms eternal or temporal from our own limited perspective inside of time. But what does that mean when time is removed from the equation. We cannot understand this because we don't have a grid for it. We only have our experience.


Another interesting point, I think. I saw someone say something about the penalty no longer being "scary" (that was not the exact wording but the tenor of the words) anymore if it is not perpetual and forever. But this, I think, reveals a way of thinking that is not healthy. The penalty of hell is not to be the motivating factor in following Christ. As if people are saying, "Wow, I really want to be a heathen, but that might mean burning forever, so I think I will save my sorry hide by repeating a prayer and getting out of that nasty consequence." I know I am being a little forward with that, but it is true. Whether one burns forever or is burned up and destroyed, the consequence is just as dire. It is missing out on eternal oneness with God through relationship with Christ. It is missing out on the eternal love dance (the perichoresis) that we can be a part of if we are in Christ (see John 17, end of the chapter). I find just as much scriptural justification for destruction as for eternal torment, and very plainly worded as well.

But doesn't that add some commentary to the OP? We have to ask the question, "WHY would one accept something like universalism in any form?" What emotions, what feelings drive the decision to go that direction. We know its not clear Biblical exegesis, because it has to be read into scripture or rather proof texts have to be "interpreted" to support it.

As I read some of the posts, it seems that one of the primary motivators was the question, "How can God who is a God of love relish in eternally tormenting those who did not follow Him?" In fact, I think that very question was asked at one point.

But God does not. Destruction is chosen by those who intentionally reject the offer of eternal life. Why do they reject the offer? Because it necessitates dying to self, giving up all you are, to gain all of Him. Very simple. Men choose to worship self rather than God and they get the result of their worship in the end.

Just some observations.


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Travis

 2021/12/6 18:27Profile
BranchinVINE
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Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 1268
Australia

 Re:

Quote:
We have to ask the question, "WHY would one accept something like universalism in any form?" What emotions, what feelings drive the decision to go that direction. We know its not clear Biblical exegesis, because it has to be read into scripture or rather proof texts have to be "interpreted" to support it.



The same applies to those who advocate eternal torment or annihilation. What emotions, what feelings drive the decision to go these directions? These are also read into scripture, proof texts “interpreted” to support the beliefs.


The Bible is clear that it is God’s desire for ALL men to be saved (1 Tim. 2:1-6).

Why do the vast majority of Christians reject what God desires?

Are Christians even willing to pray for all men as scripture exhorts (1 Tim. 2:1-6)?

Evil is overcome with good --- Rom. 12:21.




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Jade

 2021/12/7 2:41Profile
twayneb
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Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2256
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Jade: That is true. We are motivated by so many different things that are not God, but instead come from our flesh and the experiences we have had. It is in recognizing those motives and dealing with them that we begin to move toward the truth.


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Travis

 2021/12/7 11:21Profile
narrowpath
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Joined: 2005/1/9
Posts: 1522
Germany NRW

 Re:

After having quoted all scripture and taking it plainly at face value, and even going into the Greek I still wonder how one possibly can come to the conclusion that hell is not final and eternal?

As a clean room must be hell for a pig, why offer reprobate sinners an escape against their will and condemn them eternally to be with God whom they decided against and to be with saints who they disdained while on earth?





 2021/12/7 13:24Profile





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