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BranchinVINE
Member



Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 902
Australia

 Re:


narrowpath,

Quote:
Universalism is synonym with "Universal Reconciliation".



“Universalism” has become a word that preachers of eternal torment hurl at those who oppose them to intimidate them.

I reject it and will call what I believe “biblical universal reconciliation”.



Quote:
I do not care about the so called church fathers, their statements bare no weight unless found in scripture. I have a father in heaven. Often they were wrong and some of their heresies prevail until today.



“Church Fathers” -- Just using men’s terminology.

You yourself have embraced "church father" Augustine’s (354-430) doctrine of eternal torment and propagating it.



Quote:
………and dismissing anything to do with holiness, fear of God, discipline, self-denial and bearing the cross, suffering and walking the narrow path, bearing reproach and taking up my cross daily.



Are not many believers of eternal torment guilty of the same?

The doctrine of eternal torment does not sanctify anyone.

Jesus Himself is our sanctification (1 Cor. 1:30-31).



Quote:
It just shows me that we are never safe to rely on man for correct theology.



Except the men who preach the theology of eternal torment???


_________________
Jade

 2021/11/19 7:03Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5955
NC, USA

 Re:

//Mill was an agnostic and a sceptic.//

True, but that does not mean his argument can or should be ignored.

Humans in civilized areas do not endlessly torture criminals until they die, regardless of their crimes. They are either jailed for life or executed. We do not put thrumbscrews on criminals or break their bones and allow to heal only to break them again. This is because it offends both our sense of goodness and justice.

But when God does this you would say it must be good, even though being made in God’s image means we are supposed to have God’s sense of what “good” is. James says that mercy triumphs over judgment.

The idea of sin being an “infinite” offense that deserves infinite punishment is no where found in scripture— it is just something made up because it sounds good to proponents of eternal torment. One of the basic tenets of justice is that the punishment should fit the crime.


_________________
Todd

 2021/11/19 8:00Profile
narrowpath
Member



Joined: 2005/1/9
Posts: 1238
Germany NRW

 Re:

Hi Jade,

there is nothing "biblical" about "universal reconciliation" because it flatly contradicts scripture:


@Todd: You are using human centered reasoning, the truth of eternal judgment is just a horrible as the gospel is good news and tremendous relief to convicted sinners and anxious souls.
Do you want to accuse God for not meeting your standard of justice?

I am very blunt here, because universalism and its derivates just undo the cross and the gospel.

2 Corinthians 5:10-12
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11 Knowing therefore the TERROR of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

Here is a list of proof texts for eternal punishment, I am sure you know them, captitalization added for emphasis. If these do not convince you, then we are probably not on the same page as Elibeith already stated.


Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for EVER and EVER: and they have NO REST day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.


Rev 19: 1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for EVER and EVER.

Jude 6-8 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of ETERNAL fire.

Mark 9:43-48
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that NEVER shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that NEVER shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Luke 16:25-26
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a GREAT GULF fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you CANNOT; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

 2021/11/19 10:12Profile
BranchinVINE
Member



Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 902
Australia

 Re:


Hi narrowpath,

Quote:
there is nothing "biblical" about "universal reconciliation" because it flatly contradicts scripture:



That you must convincingly prove.



Quote:
Do you want to accuse God for not meeting your standard of justice?



God would accuse you of not revering His good and perfect and wondrous justice.

God’s justice seeks to restore that which are in ruins, or which are hopeless, to His perfect righteousness. Whatever falls from God's perfect righteousness is in a wrong state and must be made right.

Isa. 59:11 –
All of us growl like bears,
And moan sadly like doves;
We hope for *** justice ***, but there is none,
For salvation, but it is far from us.

Comment:
The justice needed is for healing and deliverance from the hopeless and sorrowful state.

v.12 –
For our transgressions are multiplied before You,
And our sins testify against us;
For our transgressions are with us,
And we know our iniquities:
Transgressing and denying the LORD,
And turning away from our God,
Speaking oppression and revolt,
Conceiving in and uttering from the heart lying words.
Justice is turned back,
And righteousness stands far away;
For truth has stumbled in the street,
And uprightness cannot enter.

What does the Lord do?

Isa. 59:15-16 –
Now the LORD saw,
And it was displeasing in His sight that there was *** no justice ***.
And He saw that there was no man,
And was astonished that there was no one to intercede;
Then His own arm brought salvation to Him,
And His righteousness upheld Him.



Quote:
I am very blunt here, because universalism and its derivates just undo the cross and the gospel.



I will be equally blunt.

It is those who are against universal reconciliation who are undervaluing what Christ achieved at the cross.

It was through the cross of Christ that *** God was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, not counting men’s trespasses against them *** (2 Cor. 5:19).

It was at the cross that Christ broke the powers of darkness, of sin and of the world, and set every descendant of fallen Adam free.

1 Cor. 15:21-22 –
For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.




Quote:

2 Corinthians 5:10-12
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11 Knowing therefore the TERROR of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.



God’s righteousness is established through His judgments and certainly the judgments can be terrifying.

Isa. 26:9 –
For when the earth experiences Your judgments
The inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.

Judgement will begin in the house of God (1 Pet. 4:17).

The church will also go through a “burning”.

1 Pet. 4:12 –
Beloved, do not be surprised at the *** fiery ordeal *** among you, which comes upon you for your testing, as though some strange thing were happening to you;

“fiery ordeal” – Strong’s Gk 4451 meaning “burning”

It is the same “burning” in Rev. 18:9 and 18:18.

If the “burning” in the church is a refining fire, then the “burning” in Rev. 18 would also be a refining fire.

The “burning” will burn out all that is not of God that is in a man.

“Knowing therefore the TERROR of the Lord, we persuade men……”

2 Cor. 13:5 –
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how *** that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates ***?



Quote:
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for EVER and EVER: and they have NO REST day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.



I will not comment on this scripture passage as it is concerned with the controversial mark of the beast.



Quote:
Rev 19: 1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for EVER and EVER.



This is the “burning” of “Babylon”.

This “burning” of Babylon is mentioned in Rev. 18:9 and 18:18; the Greek word for “burning” here is the same as the Greek word for the church’s “fiery trial” in 1 Pet. 4:12.

The smoke that rose up for ever and ever must be from the ashes of a completely destroyed Babylon for “So will Babylon, the great city, be thrown down with violence, and *** will never be found again ***” (Rev.18:21).

It is not “eternal torment”.



Quote:
Jude 6-8 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of ETERNAL fire.



“ETERNAL” – Strong’s Gk 166 – “agelong”.



Quote:
Mark 9:43-48
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that NEVER shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that NEVER shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.



Every descendant of fallen Adam is guilty! All are doomed.

Thank God! The old man has been crucified with Christ. At the cross of Christ, the hands of flesh, the feet of flesh and the eyes of flesh have all been circumcised with a circumcision not made with hands.

Christ has saved everyone from the fire that can NEVER be quenched! We can all enter the kingdom of God, a new creation in Christ, clothed with Christ, accepted in the Beloved.

1 John 4:14 –
We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be *** THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD ***.

Praise the Lord!



Quote:
Luke 16:25-26
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a GREAT GULF fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you CANNOT; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.



The rich man for sure CANNOT cross that GREAT GULF. He must DIE with Jesus at His cross. When he is dead and has become “nothing”, then he will rise with the Lord Jesus in His resurrection to the glory of God and Christ will be his all in all.

Luke 18:24-26 –
And Jesus looked at him and said, “How hard it is for those who are wealthy to enter the kingdom of God! “For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” They who heard it said, “Then who can be saved?” But He said, “The things that are impossible with people are possible with God.”


_________________
Jade

 2021/11/20 7:42Profile
Elibeth
Member



Joined: 2011/8/14
Posts: 1121


 Re:

Jade,
I wish so much that I could help.

Re: your question:

“Areyou saying that Jesus is just a “pattern” for us to copy? That we are to follow God the Father who is the Holy Spirit and the Word, who leads us, and Jesus is just a distant Jesus in our Christian life?”[end of quote]
...........
Jade , I am saying,we are to be *born again of *The Spirit of God, ... filled and *Led by that Spirit of God.
Jesus was *Led by The Spirit of God, His Father.
.............

2 John 1:9 (KJV)
“Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the *doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that *abideth IN he *doctrine of Christ, he hath *both the •Father and the *Son.“

And:

This is a quote on the Word *doctrine ,from Bro Gbile Akanni,on a video that I was hearing this morning:

Quote from Bro Gbile:

“Give attendance to the *doctrine”
*doctrine is the systematic commutative teaching of The Word of God that forms and commutates conviction and manner of our living.”

“Doctrinal knowledge,... systematic counsels of God that instills a man firmly.”
[end quote]
Wisdom that comes from from God alone..
.........

Proverbs 14:12 (KJV)
“There is a *way which *seemeth right unto a man, but the *end thereof [are] the *ways of *death.

.... there is *a *way,.. not *The *Way

“I Am *The Way

...through The *Blood of Jesus, and His *directions ,... the Words that I speak,...not throwing His Words to the ground,.(keep). *The Truth,

.... *The Life

(Not an imagined Jesus)

That *seemeth right ...
.
...it just *seems right.

..............
2 Thessalonians 1:7-11 (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not *the *gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

(The *gospel of the *kingdom of God/heaven)

9 Who shall be punished with *everlasting *destruction *from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed ) in that day.

11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of [this] calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of [his] goodness, and the work of faith with power:“
................
I truly am not trying to be harsh in no way,.. hope is to help.
I , too am still learning.... “Put my yoke upon you, and learn of me”
...............
elizabeth

 2021/11/20 14:20Profile
narrowpath
Member



Joined: 2005/1/9
Posts: 1238
Germany NRW

 Re:

Hi Jade,

if you defy what is plainly written, then there is nothing more I can say. You believe what you want to believe. Hell and judgment is a fundamental doctrine of the Christian faith and not negotialble.

It is perhaps the most uncomfortable and hardest truth to embrace, but it is still truth to set us free and central to the gospel.

The Spirit himself bears witness of this thruth as I stated earlier.

There are two types of fire which you are confusing:
God's refining fire for his saints and for those who might in their trials turn to God

and

God's retributive judgment after death, where there is no opportunity for parole or anihilation, alliviation or purging.

If you browse through the preachers featured here on SI, you will find they all believe in an eternal hell, have you noticed? Check David Wilkerson, Keith Daniel, Chuck Smith, Paul Washer, Zac Poonen and many others.

Universalism and Universal Reconcilition usually go along with popular, liberal and seeker friendly Christian movements, there you will find many like minded people, they may well now be in the majority of what calls itself Christian.

[The rich man for sure CANNOT cross that GREAT GULF. He must DIE with Jesus at His cross. When he is dead and has become “nothing”, then he will rise with the Lord Jesus in His resurrection to the glory of God and Christ will be his all in all.]

The rich man is already dead an in eternal torment.

also

πυρὸς αἰωνίου means eternal in its adjectival form, so here it is eternal fire, not agelong.

[It was through the cross of Christ that *** God was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, not counting men’s trespasses against them *** (2 Cor. 5:19)]

This reconciliaton is a provision for all men, but not an something that all man consumate.

If men do not repent despite Christs reconciliation, they will be given over the to the judgment they themselves chose. That is the message of the cross. God has done everything for us, if we reject it, the wrath of God abides on us.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

 2021/11/20 14:29Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5955
NC, USA

 Re:

Here is an article by David Servant expressing his misgivings about the concept of eternal torment. He leans toward conditional immortality(annihilation) but his comments deserve consideration. He is respected in this forum.

https://www.davidservant.com/the-hell-debate-annihilationism/


_________________
Todd

 2021/11/20 18:35Profile
BranchinVINE
Member



Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 902
Australia

 Re:



Hi narrowpath,

Quote:
if you defy what is plainly written, then there is nothing more I can say.



I have already given scripture to support my position and have commented on the scripture you gave.

You are free to disagree.



Quote:
It is perhaps the most uncomfortable and hardest truth to embrace, but it is still truth to set us free and central to the gospel.



Jesus Himself is the Truth and central in the gospel of our salvation. And, Jesus Himself, and no one and nothing else, sets us free.



Quote:
There are two types of fire which you are confusing:
God's refining fire for his saints and for those who might in their trials turn to God

and

God's retributive judgment after death, where there is no opportunity for parole or anihilation, alliviation or purging.



That is your theological assumption.

I have already given scripture to challenge this.



Quote:
If you browse through the preachers featured here on SI, you will find they all believe in an eternal hell, have you noticed? Check David Wilkerson, Keith Daniel, Chuck Smith, Paul Washer, Zac Poonen and many others.



I have much respect for these preachers but God’s own Word remains the highest authority which I am sure all will agree.



Quote:
Universalism and Universal Reconcilition usually go along with popular, liberal and seeker friendly Christian movements, there you will find many like minded people, they may well now be in the majority of what calls itself Christian



God’s Truth will never be nullified by any man’s error.

Rom. 3:4 -- Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar.



Quote:
The rich man is already dead an in eternal torment.

also

πυρὸς αἰωνίου means eternal in its adjectival form, so here it is eternal fire, not agelong.



That would have been the tragic story. But because a great and wonderful Savior came, there will be a happy ending.

Jesus is the Savior of the world (1 John 4:14)

Ps. 106:8 –
Nevertheless He saved them *** for the sake of His name ***,
That He might make His power known.



----------

God’s house is a house of prayer.

In 1 Tim. 2:1-6, Paul exhorted the church to pray for all men for it is God’s desire for all men to be saved.

There is power in prayer.

If the prayers of a few godly saints in the Hebrides Revival saved almost everyone there, surely the prayers of all godly saints in the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ will save all men.

Will you pray?


----------

I will close this discussion with these words of Gamaliel:

Acts 5:38-39 –
“………for if this plan or this work is of men, it will come to nothing; but if it is of God, you cannot overthrow it—lest you even be found to fight against God.”


----------


Blessings


_________________
Jade

 2021/11/21 9:18Profile
narrowpath
Member



Joined: 2005/1/9
Posts: 1238
Germany NRW

 Re:


Hi Jade, you and I have presented our cases, we have said what there is to be said and others, too.

Greg, would you mind to draw this this thread to a close?

 2021/11/21 9:34Profile
JFW
Member



Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 1620
Dothan, Alabama

 Re: end of the end

10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still

the final decree- no chance of reversing
This is where mercy comes to an end as there is no need of it in heaven and no opportunity for it in hell -


_________________
Fletcher

 2021/11/21 9:56Profile





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