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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Hell

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TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5955
NC, USA

 Re:

From William Law:
—————
Love, goodness, and communication of good, is the immutable glory and perfection of the divine nature, and nothing can have union with God, but that which partakes of this goodness. The love that brought forth the existence of all things, changes not through the fall of its creatures, but is continually at work, to bring back all fallen nature and creature to their first state of goodness. All that passes for a time between God and his fallen creature, is but one and the same thing, working for one and the same end; and though this is called wrath, that called punishment, curse, and death, it is all from the beginning to the end, nothing but the work of the first creating love, and means nothing else, does nothing else, but those works of purifying fire, which must, and alone can burn away all that dark evil, which separates the creature from its first created union with God. God's providence, from the fall to the restitution of all things, is doing the same thing, as when he said to the dark chaos of fallen nature, "Let there be light"; he still says, and will continue saying the same thing, till there is no evil of darkness left in all that is nature and creature. God creating, God illuminating, God sanctifying, God threatening and punishing, God forgiving and redeeming, is but one and the same essential, immutable, never ceasing working of the divine nature. That in God which illuminates and glorifies saints and angels in heaven, is that very same working of the divine nature, which wounds, pains, punishes, and purifies sinners upon earth. And (N.B.) every number of destroyed sinners, whether thrown by Noah's flood, or Sodom's brimstone, into the terrible furnace of a life, insensible of anything but new forms of raging misery till judgment's day, must through the all -working, all- redeeming love of God, which never ceases, come at last to know that they had lost, and have found again such a God of love as this.

And if long and long ages of fiery pain, and tormenting darkness, fall to the share of many, or most of God's apostate creatures, they will last no longer, than till the great fire of God has melted all arrogance into humility, and all that is SELF has died in the long agonies and bloody sweat of a lost God, which is that all-saving cross of Christ, which will never give up its redeeming power, till sin and sinners have no more a name among the creatures of God.


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Todd

 2021/11/18 14:37Profile
narrowpath
Member



Joined: 2005/1/9
Posts: 1238
Germany NRW

 Re:

Hi Todd,

As far as William Law is concerned I must admit, this is plain universalism. It bewilders me that this otherwise so influential Puritan has such flaws. It just shows me that we are never safe to rely on man for correct theology.

Wesley and Whitefield were influenced greatly by Laws classic
"A Serious Call to a Devout and Holy Life"

I guess it was the influence of the mystic Jakob Boehme who caused his descent into mysticism and other aberations.

 2021/11/18 15:08Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5955
NC, USA

 Re:

But it is a version of universalism that does not deny the tortures of hell for unrepentant sinners, perhaps for eons. It just holds that ultimately even the most stubborn will repent.

So the ultimate question is whether God’s punishments are remedial or for the mere sake of punishment. It’s is hard to fathom how an eternity of torment is justified by relatively few years of sinning. Not only that, but if hell is eternal there will always be sin and sinners.


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Todd

 2021/11/18 15:54Profile
narrowpath
Member



Joined: 2005/1/9
Posts: 1238
Germany NRW

 Re:

This is hard to fathom for a finite human mind. The Spirit has to convict us:


John 16:7-11
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

The conforter comforts with the sweetest comfort AND brings us into tantalizing conviction!

When we are unrepentant towards an infinitely holy God, who has provided the ultimate sacrifice of his only begotten Son to save us to the uttermost, and reject His boundless grace and all sufficient atonement then eternal punishment in hell is adequate and righteous and just! God seals the reprobates ultimate choice and gives him what he deserves - the just compensation for his works, regardless if he was a vile criminal or a decent, but self-righteous man.


Just keep in mind what an awful thing it is to reject such a priceless gift and keep in mind who it is we reject.

 2021/11/18 16:39Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5955
NC, USA

 Re:

“Anything carried to the infinite must have all of the properties of the same thing as finite, except those which depend on finiteness….The parallel assertion must be made respecting infinite goodness. What belongs to it either as Infinite or as Absolute I do not pretend to know; but I know that infinite goodness must be goodness, and that what is not consistent with goodness, is not consistent with infinite goodness. If in ascribing goodness to God I do not mean what I mean by goodness; if I do not mean the goodness of which I have some knowledge, but an incomprehensible attribute of an incomprehensible substance, which for aught I know may be a totally different quality from that which I love and venerate,…what do I mean by calling it goodness? And what reason have I for venerating it? …****To say that God’s goodness may be different in kind from man’s goodness, what is it but saying with a slight change of phraseology that God may possibly not be good?****” (my emphasis)

John Stuart Mill


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Todd

 2021/11/18 17:10Profile
JFW
Member



Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 1620
Dothan, Alabama

 Re: apostle Paul’s view of universal reconciliation

14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Now surely the clear point is that God has done all He can do through Christ to make a way for everyone to know Him, yet there is the caveat of “be ye” which squarely puts the onus on us to respond in kind.
If there were an “ultimate consummation” where God in fact restored those previously judged post mortem (hell) then the onus would be on Him to say so.... as He does nothing without first revealing it to the prophets, in which case we would have it as the scriptures are a closed cannon, being complete in themselves. In fact the Lord did reveal His plan for universal reconciliation in Christ, thru the mouth of Paul who then revealed it to us.
Honestly there’s not really an honest argument for it, other than wishful thinking which, unlike the scriptures, is under our jurisdiction. The scriptures tell us from beginning to end and especially Jesus told us to fear the Lord Almighty.... if only the end he is so loving that eventually you’ll be with him and after all it’s eternity so I am free to do whatever I want and the outcome is ultimately the same - that is nowhere found in the scriptures, full stop . Of course someone can make a patchwork quilt out of preselected verses where they can imply virtually anything, but no straightforward reading of the text could ever lead someone to such a conclusion. Of course a person can assign any sort of academic classification to a text and marginalize its effect, where the terms themselves serve as the means of doing so, for example the term “apocalyptic language” is oft used to dismiss the literalness of the lord events described but there is a rather obvious reason the writer is using “apocalyptic language” and that’s because he’s seeing and describing “THE” apocalypse... 🤷🏽‍♂️


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Fletcher

 2021/11/18 22:19Profile
Elibeth
Member



Joined: 2011/8/14
Posts: 1121


 Re:

Jade,
Re:you said,..
“Guess we are not on the same page.”
...............
I’m really sorry to say this, Jade, but it seems that we are really not on the same page...

I try to make what I say,... what my thoughts are, plain, but know that I don’t always do that,... so at this time that all I can do....sorry.
.............
elizabeth

 2021/11/18 22:29Profile
Elibeth
Member



Joined: 2011/8/14
Posts: 1121


 Re:

Romans 11:22 (KJV)
“Behold therefore the *goodness and *severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.”
.............
Hell:
God , though His great mercy , has done by not even sparing His only begotten Son to keep us from being thrown into everlasting hell.and is doing all that He does though The Spirit of His Son , having great mercy on us , to keep His wrath from us, ... (it is not His will that any perish.,)
But if we *defy Him, and refuse to follow Him, He is God, ...His Ways are not our ways, and He has no other alternative but to *cast us away....
and hell is His designated place ,... the lake of fire, forever,He has made/created for the disobedient.

We have been called to be followers of Jesus,... and we know that Jesus followed his Father, God, who is The Spirit/Word , who He was *led by.
...........
elizabeth

 2021/11/18 23:10Profile
narrowpath
Member



Joined: 2005/1/9
Posts: 1238
Germany NRW

 Re:

Mill was an agnostic and a sceptic.

If punishment is not eternal but say millions of years in purgatory, in light of eternity it is just a split second, and unrepentant sinners are in glory.

 2021/11/19 6:22Profile
BranchinVINE
Member



Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 902
Australia

 Re:


Elizabeth,

Quote:
We have been called to be followers of Jesus,... and we know that Jesus followed his Father, God, who is The Spirit/Word , who He was *led by.



Are you saying that Jesus is just a “pattern” for us to copy? That we are to follow God the Father who is the Holy Spirit and the Word, who leads us, and Jesus is just a distant Jesus in our Christian life?

I am asking this because we must not deny the absolute Lordship and supremacy of Christ and moment by moment we must abide in Him (John 15).

“Moment by moment I’m kept in His love;
Moment by moment I’ve life from above;
Looking to Jesus till glory doth shine;
Moment by moment, O Lord, I am Thine.”
--- Old Hymn


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Jade

 2021/11/19 7:01Profile





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