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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : The Rapture: An American Prosperity Gospel

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TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5967
NC, USA

 Re:

1. The word for "meeting" the Lord in the air in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 (apantesin) is used in two other places in the New Testament: Matthew 25:6 and Acts 28:15. In both places it refers to a meeting in which people go out to meet a dignitary and then accompany him in to the place from which they came out. One of these, Matthew 25:6, is even a parable of the second coming and so a strong argument that this is the sense of the meeting here in 1 Thess. 4:17-that we rise to meet the Lord in the air and then welcome him to earth as king.

2. The wording of 2 Thessalonians 1:5-7, when read carefully, shows that Paul expects to attain rest from suffering at the same time and in the same event that he expects the unbelievers to receive punishment, namely, at the revelation of Jesus with mighty angels in flaming fire. This revelation is not the pre-tribulational rapture but the glorious second coming. Which means that Paul did not expect an event at which he and the other believers would be given rest seven years before the glorious appearing of Christ in flaming fire. Vengeance on unbelievers and rest for the persecuted church come on the same day in the same event.

3. The wording of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 suggests that the "assembling to meet him" is the same as "the day of the Lord" about which they are confused. But the assembling is the "rapture" and "the day of the Lord" is the glorious second coming. They appear to be one event.

Supporting this is the reference to "gathering" the elect in Matthew 24:31. Here there is a gathering (same word) but it is clearly a post-tribulational context. So there is no need to see the gathering and the day of .the Lord in 2 Thessalonians as separate events.

4. If Paul were a pre-tribulationist why did he not simply say in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 that the Christians don't need to worry that the day of the Lord is here because all the Christians are still here? Instead he talks just the way you would expect a post-tribulational person to do. He tells them that they should not think that the day of the Lord is here because the apostasy and the man of lawlessness have not appeared. (See the AM sermon of 8-30-87 for more on this one.)

5. When you read Matthew 24 or Mark 13 or Luke 21, which are Jesus' descriptions of the end times, there is no mention of a rapture removing believers from the events of the end. A normal reading gives no impression of a departure. On the contrary, he talks as if the believing listeners and then the readers would or could experience the things he mentions. See Mt. 24:4, 9, 15, 23, 25f, 33, etc.

6. Going through tribulation, even when it is appointed by God, is not contrary to Biblical teaching. See especially 1 Peter 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 1:3-10; Hebrews 12:3-11. But even so, Revelation 9:4 suggests that the saints will be in some measure protected in the time of distress by the seal of God.

7. The commands to "watch" do not lose their meaning if the second coming is not an any-moment one. See Matt. 25:1-13 where all ten maidens are asleep when the Lord returns. Yet the lesson at the end of the parable is, "Watch!" The point is that watching is not gazing up for an any-moment-return of the Lord; it is the moral vigilance that keeps you ready at all times doing your duty—the wise maidens had full lanterns! They were watchful!

Nor does the teaching that the second coming will be unexpected lose its force if post-tribulationism is true. See Luke 12:46 where the point is that if a servant gets drunk thinking that his master is delayed and will not catch him-that very servant will be surprised and taken off guard. But as 1 Thess. 5:1-5 says, "You (believers) are not in darkness for that day to surprise you like a thief." We still teach that great moral vigilance and watchfulness is necessary lest we be lulled asleep and fall prey to the deceits of the last days and be overtaken in the judgment.

8. The strongest pre-tribulational text, Rev. 3:10, is open to another interpretation without any twisting. It says, "Because you have kept my word of patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial which is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell upon the earth." But to "be kept from the hour of testing" is not necessarily to be taken out of the world during this hour, and thus spared suffering. Compare Gal. 1:4 and Jesus' prayer for his disciples in John 17:15 where to "keep from" does not mean physical removal. And notice the inevitability of martyrdom in Rev. 6:9-11. The promise is to be guarded from the hour in the sense of being guarded from the demoralizing forces of that hour.

9. The second coming does not lose its moral power in post-tribulationism. New Testament moral incentive is not that we should fear being caught doing evil, but that we should so love the appearing of the Lord that we want to be pure as the Lord is pure, for whom we hope, as 1 John 3:1-3 says.

~~John Piper


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Todd

 2021/8/26 18:12Profile
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Joined: 2007/2/8
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 Re:

Hi TMK,
The points you are making are using scripture to argue a post trib coming of Christ and I can accept that.I dont agree with a post trib rapture to be clear but I can accept that you are using scripture to argue the point.The original post did not and relied on other sources and on experential doctrine.
You are making the "suffering case" on scripture rather than on experience which is the difference.

Put another way even if pre tribbers think that the rapture is escapism (which i dont accept) that shouldnt alter the doctrine of the rapture or the way we debate it at all.
What pre tribbers think about the rapture doesnt alter in any way whether it will be pre or post,
urs staff


 2021/8/26 18:32Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5967
NC, USA

 Re:

Just to be clear as I indicated at the bottom that was a quote from John Piper.

I am not post trib- I suppose I am more amillenial but primarily I am pan-millennial.


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Todd

 2021/8/27 7:40Profile
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 Re:

Hi TMk,
If I were to sum up
"Post Tribulation belief has become reactionary"

It looks at the elements of the pre trib side like "prosperity gospel" and reacts to it.The reaction is that it must be wrong because these guys believe it.

They then take a grand canyon theological leap across teachings and say because the bible says "we may suffer" in this life we therefore must go through The Great Tribulation.

I am taking into account when I say these things that we may suffer or be persecuted or have trials and tribulations in this life and it does build character and hope but that this does not mean we go through The Great Tribulation.

Also I can say that just because Post tribulation christianity is reactionary doesnt mean its wrong,rather its arguing in the wrong manner.

One of the actual bigger problems the Post Tribulation belief has is that it ultimately has to believe in a "Soft Great Tribulation".They ultimately have to say their is no widespread war or famine etc its localized,
urs staff



 2021/8/28 5:11Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5967
NC, USA

 Re:

I used to be pre-trib- it seems everyone was at one time because that’s all anyone’s been taught in latter half of 20th century- at least evangelicals.

My biggest problem is that I don’t think there are 2 raptures. If there are 2, then you can calculate when the 2nd coming is, and Jesus says that is not possible.


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Todd

 2021/8/28 7:55Profile
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 Re:

Hi TMK ,
Jesus didnt say it was impossible ,he said that no man knows the day or the hour except the father in heaven.
He didnt say they would not know the season nor did he say that this would never be revealed.
Also with the post trib you can calculate the 2nd coming as you know its staight away after The Great Tribulation or a least straight away after the sun is darkened etc.

Even if it is true that the pre trib is a johnny come lately doctrine and I have heard it argued that it is not that doesnt make it inccorrect as we can expect more revelation (in line with scripture) as the day approaches.
The argument has to be along scriptural lines regardless of what is being taught and when the teaching began.

Unfortunately the original post was guilt by association rather than guilt,
urs staff

 2021/8/28 11:44Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5967
NC, USA

 Re:

That’s why I’m not post trib either. No literal 7 year trib IMO.


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Todd

 2021/8/28 15:49Profile
murrcolr
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Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1579
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Quote: If there are 2, then you can calculate when the 2nd coming is, and Jesus says that is not possible.

Here is a thought

Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you. Rev3:3

If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief.

If you are awake will you know when he comes?

For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 1Thess 5:2

But read a bit further

But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief. 1 Thess 5:4

For you are all children of light, children of the day. We are not of the night or of the darkness. So then let us not sleep, as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober. 1 Thess 5:5-6

Jesus coming for us will not be a surprise...


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Colin Murray

 2021/8/28 15:52Profile
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Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1959


 Re:

Hi TMK,
Then nothing is literal ,no literal Jesus and no literal cruciification.Its all a fantasy and we can decide for ourselves whats real and whats not.
The only position that I think has no merit what so ever is that their is no literal Great Tribulation,
urs staff

 2021/8/28 17:38Profile
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Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1959


 Re:

Hi Murrcolr,
I agree it will not be a surprize ,the thief will not surprize us ,
urs staff

 2021/8/28 17:39Profile





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