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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : The Rapture: An American Prosperity Gospel

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murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1579
Scotland, UK

 Re:

This subject has always been easy for me...

Why you may ask.

When I heard God speak about the move of God he was going to send he said - he was going raise up a "victorious people" These be those who will get a the victory over the beast, his image, his mark and his name.


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Colin Murray

 2021/8/24 22:27Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
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Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4597


 Re:

Hi TMK,

To be fair, there are MANY widely embraced idea that were prevalent in the Church (from even before Constantine) that are now dismissed. There are gnostic gospels that were spread long before too. There are traditions of men and "high church" beliefs that were the "accepted" view of most congregations in the world.

Even after the beginning of the Protestant Reformation, there were still some high church traditions that most of us now understand to be extrabiblical. They are historic doctrinal traditions -- but we understand to be some of those "added" parts that developed over time during the nearly-2,000 years of the Christian faith.

Remember: The Anabaptists were once the "radicals" of the world because they believed that you should only be baptized after conversion (and not in infancy). The notion of baptism by immersion was almost unheard of until the 1500s.

While many (if not most) scholars believe that immersion was the primary (or even only) form of baptism in the Bible, there are indications of sprinkling or pouring becoming common by the fourth century (even before the advent of the Roman Catholic institution).

So, just because something seems to be a more "modern" teaching, it doesn't mean that it is false. Moreover, history shows us that there were already sectarian views very early on.

As such, I feel that the widely claimed notion that the "rapture" (I personally don't like this word even though I embrace this as a very possible event) is entirely a "modern" idea is somewhat inaccurate. There is evidence that people long before the 18th century may have believed in a "catching away" of the Church before the period of God's wrath.

There is, of course, a loss of historical records in much of the early Church. We have the Gospels and Epistles (rare as they were in those days) and little else. After all, writing material wasn't readily available for most (especially the early persecuted Church).

Yes, there are "early church fathers" who have a tangible record of views; however, we don't have a full record of either the true Church (including godly apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers) and those who were already embracing notions that were extrabiblical.

Unfortunately, there is a habit of generalizing those of us who might embrace the notion of a "catching away" prior to the period of God's wrath.

I've read numerous posts about how those of us who might believe (or, in my case, lean toward) this idea are somehow under the impression that we shouldn't face persecution or tribulation in this world. It's suggested that we want to somehow find "confirmation bias" that would coincide with a desire for "comfort believism."

As staff mentioned, aside from the prosperity cult, I don't know anyone who believes that Christians are immune to trials, tribulation or persecution in this world. In fact, I see quite the opposite! I've known people who believe in a "pre-tribulation rapture" who willingly endure enormous persecution and tribulation for the faith.

There is, of course, a difference between earthly tribulation and persecution (even guided by Satan) and that period known as the "wrath" of God. The question isn't whether believers will suffer persecution or tribulation (we certainly will...and do) but whether we will suffer the wrath of God that will be poured out upon the whole world.

The roll of preachers included in the database of sermons at SermonIndex include many who held different views on eschatology (as well as other doctrinal issues). Many very well-respected men of God believe in a pre-tribulation rapture. Others don't.

I think that it is important to not (and I am not implying that you or anyone here is doing this) simply dismiss the integrity of us who might believe in a gathering of the Bride of Christ before the period in which the wrath of God is poured out upon the Earth. Most of us want to believe in TRUTH and only truth. If the Scriptures clearly said one thing -- we would believe it.

For me, the Scriptures aren't exceedingly clear in this. I understand the Biblical argument for why some believe that we will go through the "Great Tribulation." I also understand the Biblical argument for why some believe that we will be gathered with Christ before it.

In fact, I prefer to know both (or all) possible end-time eschatological scenarios. I may lean toward one but I understand the others. However, I'm not even prepared to proclaim any of them as an indisputable "truth." If I'm not convinced entirely in either (or any) way, then I am satisfied that I will live my life for Christ -- fully prepared for whatever may come.

After all, there have been many believers (including some who have been a part of this community of believers) who were waiting for a rapture, tribulation or seconding coming yet have already breathed their last breath in this life. In fact, nearly every believer that has ever lived has, well, died. They never saw the end of this chapter of history -- no matter how much they longed for it (or believed that it was imminent in their lifetimes).

Yet, I suppose that's the key. Like John seemed to exhort us in the final chapter of Revelation, we should long for the Lord's coming.

Quote:
"He who testifies to these things says, 'Yes, I am coming quickly.' Amen. Come, Lord Jesus."
- Revelation 22:20


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Christopher

 2021/8/25 2:09Profile
jochbaptist
Member



Joined: 2010/11/24
Posts: 327


 When is the wrath poured out?

Hi Christopher

You said:
"There is, of course, a difference between earthly tribulation and persecution (even guided by Satan) and that period known as the "wrath" of God. The question isn't whether believers will suffer persecution or tribulation (we certainly will...and do) but whether we will suffer the wrath of God that will be poured out upon the whole world.
.......... I think that it is important to not (and I am not implying that you or anyone here is doing this) simply dismiss the integrity of us who might believe in a gathering of the Bride of Christ before the period in which the wrath of God is poured out upon the Earth."

I would appreciate it if you could show me from scripture where you find the wrath of God being poured out after believers are removed. (Besides the book of Revelation if possible, but you can include them.)

Blessings


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J Kruger

 2021/8/25 8:17Profile
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3451
This world is not my home anymore.

 Re:


First, let’s start with that I should have never mentioned Afghanistan because that has taken us in a direction that I didn’t want to go. Please dismiss anything about Afghanistan going forward!

Quote:
Staff wrote: The original post had many things wrong with it and I was pointing out that it didnt do the Post Trib side of the debate any favours as it was relying on hearsay ,it didnt understand the pretrib point of view and its muddled up on what the Great Trib is compares to tribulations.



1. What do you deem as “heresay”? Any writings not found in or outside the KJV of the Bible? Just trying to find a starting point with you!
2. And you’ve mentioned suffering vs the great tribulation and how your pre-tribbers have a very biblical view of suffering and post-tribbers are “muddling it up.” Can you describe that more also so we can be on the same page?

Thank you and God bless,
Lisa


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Lisa

 2021/8/25 9:12Profile
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3451
This world is not my home anymore.

 Re: Chris

Quote:
In fact, I prefer to know both (or all) possible end-time eschatological scenarios. I may lean toward one but I understand the others. However, I'm not even prepared to proclaim any of them as an indisputable "truth." If I'm not convinced entirely in either (or any) way, then I am satisfied that I will live my life for Christ -- fully prepared for whatever may come.

After all, there have been many believers (including some who have been a part of this community of believers) who were waiting for a rapture, tribulation or seconding coming yet have already breathed their last breath in this life. In fact, nearly every believer that has ever lived has, well, died. They never saw the end of this chapter of history -- no matter how much they longed for it (or believed that it was imminent in their lifetimes).



Amen Chris!! If you remember I used to argue adamantly for post-trib but the Lord HAD to set me down and ask me point blank: how many do you know that has gone through Pre-Trib? Well, none. How many do you know that went through Post-Trib? Well, again Lord, none. He said, “That’s right, then why are you are arguing about it? Everyone so far has gone the way of the grave. If you keep this arguing up, you will lose influence with people (I will lose influence thru you) because of a stance that you don’t know one way or the other.” I don't want to lose influence because of "me" and my opinions about things I don't know!!!

I know you “lean” pre-trib and I “lean” post-trib but we both understand each other!

God bless you,
Lisa


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Lisa

 2021/8/25 10:00Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1956


 Re:

Hi Lysa,
The biblical view of suffering is that we can have suffering in this life but that whether we have suffering or trials or tribulations or persecution it has nothing to do with a period of time called "The Great Tribulation"
Post tribbers muddle up these two things and say because we have suffering it proves that we go through the "The Great Tribulation".They think that the two subjects are interchangeable and they are not.
Its like saying that because God has rescued me from a bad situation ,a dangerouse situation where I was going to die except for he intervined, then that proves that God will rescue me from going through the Great Tribulation and hence proves a pre trib rapture.Obviously thats a bogus arguement and so is the Post Trib view that because we go through trials and tribulations and persecution and suffering then that proves the post trib view.
If a Post tribber debated other reasons using scripture rather that what Ignatius said then the believer would be using cannon rather that what other people think about scripture,
urs staff

 2021/8/25 15:40Profile
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3451
This world is not my home anymore.

 Re:

Quote:
Staff: The biblical view of suffering is that we can have suffering in this life but that whether we have suffering or trials or tribulations or persecution it has nothing to do with a period of time called "The Great Tribulation"

Post tribbers muddle up these two things and say because we have suffering it proves that we go through the "The Great Tribulation". They think that the two subjects are interchangeable and they are not.

Its like saying that because God has rescued me from a bad situation ,a dangerouse situation where I was going to die except for he intervined, then that proves that God will rescue me from going through the Great Tribulation and hence proves a pre trib rapture. Obviously thats a bogus arguement and so is the Post Trib view that because we go through trials and tribulations and persecution and suffering then that proves the post trib view.

If a Post tribber debated other reasons using scripture rather that what Ignatius said then the believer would be using cannon rather that what other people think about scripture, urs staff




///Post tribbers muddle up these two things and say because we have suffering it proves that we go through the "The Great Tribulation". They think that the two subjects are interchangeable and they are not.///

Which "post-tribber's" are you talking about? And if what you say is true and you can prove actual people (post-tribbers) believing such malarkey, then, of course, I would agree that it is a bogus argument.

I have been post trib for nigh onto 23 years and I've never muddled up today's suffering proving we go through the Great Tribulation and those I know haven't either.

Are you sure you are not taken what a post-tribber said and turned it into your argument?? I'm not trying to be mean but I'm not sure who is saying this.

Thanks,
Lisa


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Lisa

 2021/8/25 17:53Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1956


 Re: The Rapture: An American Prosperity Gospel

Hi Lysa
FROM THE ORIGINAL POST

"We will indeed be saved, but as Orthodox Christians, our understanding is that we will be saved through the endurance of our struggles—that the coming calamities will orient us towards our God and Savior, yet we will suffer to the end, just as our forefathers and martyrs of the Church did"

Here is a clear example of a Post tribber making the case or building the case that because we have over come calamities and struggles we will go through The Great Tribulation

BELOW is another of example of a Post tribber building the case that because have afflication etc we will go Through the Great Tribulation.

"
“Since the road leading to immortal life is extremely narrow and full of affliction, and on account of this there are few who traverse it (Matt. 7:14), we must staunchly endure every trial of the devil, awaiting with hope our heavenly reward."


So the Whole original post is base on the fact that we go through trials and tribulations and suffering we will go through The Great Tribulation and that the Pre trib view is wrong.
Any fair minded person who reads the fist original post will agree that the main arguements are
We go through suffering etc and we must endure to the end and because we have sufferings and endure we go through The Great Tribulation
And that the Pre Trib view is a johnny come lately gospel ,
So the Post clearly muddles up suffering trials and tribulations and persecution with The Great Tribulation,
urs staff

 2021/8/25 18:11Profile
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3451
This world is not my home anymore.

 Re:

Quote:
Hi Lysa
FROM THE ORIGINAL POST

"We will indeed be saved, but as Orthodox Christians, our understanding is that we will be saved through the endurance of our struggles—that the coming calamities will orient us towards our God and Savior, yet we will suffer to the end, just as our forefathers and martyrs of the Church did"

Here is a clear example of a Post tribber making the case or building the case that because we have over come calamities and struggles we will go through The Great Tribulation



"Just as our forefathers & martyrs of the Church did" to me, does not even allude to building a case for the Great Tribulation. Maybe that's just me. To me, the author is speaking as you speak... that there will be suffering all through our life.

Staff, it seems to me if you really wanted to support your argument that there is suffering in this present world for Christians, you would use this phrase from the 4TH paragraph of the OP:
Quote:
Most of the evangelical Christian world believes this event [the Rapture] will take place 'BEFORE" the commencement of any real calamity in the world—before the “Great Tribulation.” That is, before the realized commencement of any real threat to one’s faith and physical well-being, Christ will return to save His people.



You're fight isn't with Post-Tribbers, it's with the majority of Pre-Tribbers who believe in the escapism of the Rapture. You need to be proving THEM wrong and not picking fights with post-tribbers thinking we are "making or building cases."

God bless you brother,
Lisa


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Lisa

 2021/8/26 8:09Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1956


 Re:

Hi Lysa
You make my point perfectly

Post tribbers wrongly believe that The Rapture is "escapism"
They believe this because of mixing or muddling up suffering and persecution and trials and tribulations with a period of time called "The Great Tribulation".
They are different things totally and Post tribbers think because we have suffering and persecution etc that this expereince proves we have to go through the Great Tribulation.
Put another way if the original post is not making these points ,What point is it making?


The post is clearly making a case about pre tribbers ie
1 Pre tribbers dont understand suffering and think we dont have too go through it which is totally bogus
2 Based on our experience of suffering etc we will go through the Great Tribulation

Post tribbers have to rely on experiential doctrine rather than scripture.
Experiential doctrine being "because we go through suffering,persecution etc we must have to go through The Great Tribulation"
The original post is relying on both experential doctrine and non cannon sources to make a case against a pre trib rapture.

Again you cannot make a theology based on "bad things happen to Christians" and say because bad things happen to Christians "we must then by extension go through The Great Tribulation".Equally you cannot make a theology on "Good things happen to Christians" therefore we must be raptured before the Great Tribulation,

Both Pre and Post have to use scripture to argue the case ,
urs staff


 2021/8/26 17:34Profile





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