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TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5916
NC, USA

 Re:

Many Christians support the modern state of Israel in a way that looks like they believe descendants of Jacob's bloodline &/or citizens of Israel should be guaranteed unconditional blessing & right to the land of Canaan, regardless of national or personal covenant loyalty to God. The Abrahamic Covenant is usually appealed to as the main reason for this stance.

If the Mosaic Covenant promises/blessings/cursings, which built upon the Abrahamic Covenant, were still in force, wouldn't/shouldn't the nation of Israel expect cursing & ejection from the land, per the conditions & promises, due to not following God in right covenant, the New Covenant being the one currently in force?

If the Abrahamic Covenant blessings were simply unconditional, (such as unconditional rights to national blessing & the land of Canaan), then how does one make sense of the Mosaic Covenant's conditional (not unconditional) blessings? ... If the Abrahamic Covenant's blessings were simply unconditional, why couldn't it have been wielded to disregard the conditions of the Mosaic Covenant & insist upon national blessing & right to the land, regardless of covenant loyalty? But obviously it would not have been correct to wield it in that manner, which proves the blessings of the Abrahamic Covenant weren't purely unconditional, correct?

The Mosaic/Sinaitic Covenant has been superseded by the New Covenant, so the blessings & cursings connected with the Mosaic Covenant, (which built upon the Abrahamic Covenant), are not applicable anymore, correct?

The New Covenant blessings are also conditional, not unconditional, & apply only to those in Covenant with God through following the Messiah, regardless of race ... while those not following the Messiah are cut/broken off of the covenant community, regardless of race. & the NT makes it clear that the Abrahamic Covenant promises & blessings are fulfilled in & applied to (& only to) members of the New Covenant, correct?

So, specifically based on the Scriptural perspective how & why would a Christian insist upon the unconditional blessing of the modern state of Israel...due to Scriptural, not modern political reasons?


_________________
Todd

 2021/5/17 14:08Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4587


 Re:

Hi TMK,

Quote:

So, specifically based on the Scriptural perspective how & why would a Christian insist upon the unconditional blessing of the modern state of Israel...due to Scriptural, not modern political reasons?


It was an unconditional promise to Abraham and as an inheritance to his descendants. Yet, many of Abraham's descendants died in rebellion and idolatry. In fact, many were slain by God for their rebellion and sin. Moreover, nearly all of the Israelites (including Moses) died in the wilderness -- never having obtained entry into the land that God promised.

When I refer to Israel or the promised land, I am not referring to the "government" of Israel. In truth, at times, there were multiple simultaneous governments of Abraham's seeds after Solomon. There were simultaneously existent nations of Israel and Judah -- each with their own kings.

In I Kings 19:15-18, Elijah was even instructed by God (at Sinai) to anoint an idolater, Jehu, to be king of Israel and Hazael to be king of Aram (which was technically within the boundaries of the promised land). This was while another king was ruling in Judah.

My point is that the Covenant with Abraham was about his seed and the promised land -- which is where modern day Israel and Palestinian territory exist. The Bible is somewhat silent on the matter of actual governments being any part of that Covenant.

So, when I refer to the "nation of Israel," I refer to the nation in a TRIBAL sense. It just so happens that in 1948, physical descendants of Abraham (part of the Covenant promise) returned to that land (which was promised in that Covenant).

By the way, I do think that the summary found in Nehemiah chapter 9 is very interesting. In this chapter, exiles have returned to the promised land and Jerusalem. They have rebuilt the Temple and the walls of Jerusalem -- despite being subjugated to a foreign (and pagan) king.

Yet, in this chapter, these newly-returned exiles summarize the original Covenant and Covenant Law of Moses. They summarize the promise to Abraham and the subsequent covenant law and how the original covenant promise of God was still valid despite the disobedience and rebellion (to the Law of Moses) and general faithlessness of the people.

In Genesis 15, God unconditionally promised Abraham descendants and land. God did not mention the Law. God didn't even mention the Covenant of Circumcision. God certainly didn't mention earthly governments, secular laws or skirmishes that would eventually come.

In other words, God promised that land to the descendants of Abraham -- and not specifically to the governments that they might create.


_________________
Christopher

 2021/5/17 14:46Profile
BranchinVINE
Member



Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 855
Australia

 Re:

Hi Christopher,

Let us discuss this objectively and look to Scripture alone.

My Question:
Does God still regard the Jewish people as His special possession and accept them as descendants of Abraham?

Consider these scripture:

(1) Ex. 19:5-6

They would only be God’s “own possession among all the peoples” IF they obeyed His voice and kept His covenant (Old/Mosaic Covenant). They failed. So, are they still God’s “own possession among all the peoples”?


(2) 2 Kings 17:7-23

The kingdom of Israel rejected God’s statutes and his covenant (v. 15) and God removed them from His sight (v. 18).


(3) 2 Kings 23:26-27, 21:1-18

God’s anger also burned against the kingdom of Judah and He also removed them from His sight.

Ezek. 5:6 –
But she has rebelled against My ordinances more wickedly than the nations and against My statutes more than the lands which surround her; for they have rejected My ordinances and have not walked in My statutes.


(4) Matt. 3:7-10 –

But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Therefore bear fruit in keeping with repentance; and do not suppose that you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham for our father'; for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham. The axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

Quote:
The axe IS ALREADY laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.





THE REMNANT

The Jewish people were rejected because they broke the Old/Mosaic Covenant BUT the Abrahamic Covenant is irrevocable, so God preserved a small Jewish REMNANT who believed the gospel and were brought into Christ and the New Covenant by grace through faith. These became the first members of Christ’s body, the first true descendants of Abraham IN CHRIST, and of the true Israel IN CHRIST. Therefore, God was faithful to the Abrahamic Covenant.

Rom. 11:1-10 –
I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? “Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE.” But what is the divine response to him? “I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL.”
In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; just as it is written,
“GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR,
EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT,
DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY.”
And David says,
“LET THEIR TABLE BECOME A SNARE AND A TRAP,
AND A STUMBLING BLOCK AND A RETRIBUTION TO THEM.
“LET THEIR EYES BE DARKENED TO SEE NOT,
AND BEND THEIR BACKS FOREVER.”

Quote:
In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; just as it is written,
“GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR,
EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT,
DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY.”
And David says,
“LET THEIR TABLE BECOME A SNARE AND A TRAP,
AND A STUMBLING BLOCK AND A RETRIBUTION TO THEM.
“LET THEIR EYES BE DARKENED TO SEE NOT,
AND BEND THEIR BACKS FOREVER.”



Rom. 9:6-8 –
But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED.” That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Gal. 3:26-29 –
For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.


Comment:
God’s promise in the Abrahamic Covenant to Abraham’s natural descendants continued through the Jewish remnant who believed the gospel and IN CHRIST all are born again and all promises become spiritual. To these, countless Gentile believers have been added as promised in the Abrahamic Covenant. For the promises in the Abrahamic Covenant were truly made TO CHRIST AND ALL IN CHRIST and for all people of all nations.



THE EARTHLY LAND

Did the saved remnant of the Jewish people still desired an earthly land?

Peter was a leader of the saved Jewish remnant. He said:

2 Pet. 3:10,13 –
……and the earth and its works will be burned up………But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.


NO LAND IS MENTIONED IN ROM. 11!


The church has no command to preach good news of a return to an earthly land for the Jewish people.

This is the Great Commission:

Matt. 28:18-19 –
And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."




_________________
Jade

 2021/5/18 0:35Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4587


 Re:

Hi BranchinVINE,

Quote:

Let us discuss this objectively and look to Scripture alone.


Please allow me to be clear so that this isn't confusing: I am certainly looking at this objectively and considering SCRIPTURE ALONE. I am not picking and choosing passages in order to arrive to an opinion. Rather, I am looking at the Scriptures as a whole and prayerfully endeavoring to "rightly divide the word of truth."

Now, I have read your many posts (including verses AND commentary). Yet, I cannot be any clearer in my attempt to differentiate the Genesis 15 covenant with Abraham and the subsequent (600+ years) Covenant Law of Moses.

I suspect that we are in agreement that Jews need Jesus. The Covenant of God with Abraham did not mean that the physical descendants of Abraham were somehow "saved." Righteousness could not be obtained by the Law of Moses. However, righteousness was not a condition of the Covenant promise with Abraham.

As such, I disagree with the notion that God nullified the Covenant that he made with Abraham. There is nothing that I can find in Scripture that indicates that the Covenant that God made with Abraham has been nullified.

While I believe that it is clear that Jews must be born again, I also believe that the promise to Abraham of having many generations of physical descendants and inheritance of the promised land is still valid. I find this true even with the fact that Christians are descendants of Abraham by faith.

There is not much more that I can say other than how I presented my view within the things that I have previously posted. I will conclude by pointing out that I believe that this promised land plays a crucial role in Biblical prophecy -- and for a reason. The gifts and call of God are irrevocable (Romans 11:29).


_________________
Christopher

 2021/5/18 1:07Profile
BranchinVINE
Member



Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 855
Australia

 Re:

Hi Christopher,

Quote:
I am certainly looking at this objectively and considering SCRIPTURE ALONE.



Of course you are. I just wanted to be sure that anyone else wishing to join this discussion would do the same. Sorry I was not clear about that.


Quote:
Righteousness could not be obtained by the Law of Moses. However, righteousness was not a condition of the Covenant promise with Abraham.



The Abrahamic Covenant promised a people, land/inheritance and blessings. God is holy and righteous and no unholy and unrighteous person can stand before God. The New Covenant has made it possible for people to be holy and righteous so that the Abrahamic Covenant can be effective.


Quote:
As such, I disagree with the notion that God nullified the Covenant that he made with Abraham. There is nothing that I can find in Scripture that indicates that the Covenant that God made with Abraham has been nullified.



I have always said that the Abrahamic Covenant is everlasting and irrevocable. It is the Old/Mosaic Covenant that is obsolete.


Quote:
While I believe that it is clear that Jews must be born again, I also believe that the promise to Abraham of having many generations of physical descendants and inheritance of the promised land is still valid.



The Jewish people did not produce any good fruit for God and John the Baptist said that “the axe IS ALREADY laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.”


Quote:
The gifts and call of God are irrevocable (Romans 11:29).



Yes. All the promises of God in the Abrahamic Covenant to ALL nations, Jews and Gentiles, are irrevocable.
It is because of v. 29 that Gentiles and Jews are saved in v. 30-32.
God's super-abounding grace to ALL is demonstrated in v. 32.
Paul was overwhelmed by God's unfathomable wisdom and grace he burst into the doxology in v.33-36.
God undertook to save all men by the Abrahamic Covenant and New Covenant.
The salvation of all men is guaranteed by the Abrahamic Covenant and New Covenant.



Comment:
Everyone is free to believe what they want to believe. Time and eternity will show who is right and who is wrong. Meanwhile, only those who believe in the Lord Jesus will be saved.






_________________
Jade

 2021/5/18 1:49Profile
deogloria
Member



Joined: 2020/2/12
Posts: 137


 Re:

I just like to add some more simple thoughts about the land that God promised to Abraham.
Genesis 13:15 "for all the land that you see, I will give to you and your offspring (or seed, = Christ) forever."
Abraham never possessed that land. He had to buy land to bury is wife.
Therefore my conclusion:
The promise will be fulfilled after the resurrection.
Then God will GIVE the land to those he promised.
Nobody can claim it today and say it is mine
If it will be on a new earth or a new heaven, and who exactly qualifies, I let you decide.

Edit: just adding the following:
"I have always said that the Abrahamic Covenant is everlasting and irrevocable. It is the Old/Mosaic Covenant that is obsolete." That's how I see it too, we need to keep the two seperate

 2021/5/18 3:48Profile
passerby
Member



Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 694


 Re:

The church is not Israel by John MacArthur:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtue2oFiIMQ

 2021/5/18 9:03Profile
BranchinVINE
Member



Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 855
Australia

 Re:


The Church IS Israel by The Bible

Rom. 2:28-29 –
For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Col. 2:11 –
and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;

Rom. 9:6-8 –
For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED." That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Gal. 4:28 –
And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise.

Gal. 3:26-29 –
For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.


_________________
Jade

 2021/5/18 10:05Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4587


 Re:

Hi BranchinVINE,

Quote:

The Jewish people did not produce any good fruit for God and John the Baptist said that “the axe IS ALREADY laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.”



...and...

Quote:

Yes. All the promises of God in the Abrahamic Covenant to ALL nations, Jews and Gentiles, are irrevocable.
It is because of v. 29 that Gentiles and Jews are saved in v. 30-32.
God's super-abounding grace to ALL is demonstrated in v. 32.
Paul was overwhelmed by God's unfathomable wisdom and grace he burst into the doxology in v.33-36.
God undertook to save all men by the Abrahamic Covenant and New Covenant.
The salvation of all men is guaranteed by the Abrahamic Covenant and New Covenant.



However, the verse in Romans 11:25-29 is SPECIFICALLY addressing the physical seed of Abraham.

In fact, when I read the Epistle to the Romans as a whole, I read of God's unfailing promise to Abraham regarding both his descendants (physical and those grafted into the tree) and the promised land.

This never meant that the Jews were "saved." It just meant that they are a part of a promise. That land is part of that promise too.

Yes, there are spiritual "types and shadows." Just like all people, Jews must be "born again" to enter the Kingdom of God.

Yet, Paul still distinguishes the physical Israelite from Gentiles. He even staked his status as an Israelite from the Tribe of Benjamin (Romans 11:1).

I do not believe that God broke a covenant promise with Abraham that was without conditions. It doesn't matter if the Israelites were failing -- because they always had a long history of failing. The Covenant stood throughout it all.

In fact, Paul talked about Elijah fleeing to Mt. Sinai and telling God that he was the only faithful Israelite left. Paul then said:
Quote:

4 "But what is the divine response to him? “I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”

5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice.

6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, since otherwise grace is no longer grace.

Romans 11:4-6 (NASB)



In verse 1 and verse 7, Paul reiterates that he is referring to physical Israelites. In other words, God did not reject his people (verse 1). In fact, God still set aside the physical seed of Abraham -- which is the bulk of what this particular chapter refers to (and how they will one day be saved after the fullness of Gentiles has come in).

In fact, there are many Israelites -- the physical seed of Abraham -- who have faith in Jesus Christ. God told Elijah that he had reserved seven thousand who had not bowed the knee to Baal. And, as God told Abraham, he would have spared Lot if just ten righteous had been found.


_________________
Christopher

 2021/5/20 1:24Profile





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