You are correct- that is why I am confused. I do believe in a literal future 2d coming and a recreation of the universe but I view them as practically simultaneous. I don’t believe in a literal 7 year Great Tribulation or a literal 1000 year millennial reign, nor any type of “rapture” prior to the 2d coming. At this point my mind is pretty much set and I don’t think ANYONE has it all figured out. What will happen will happen and the key is to be ready regardless.
_________________Todd
I don't have a problem with the view that Jesus will one day reign from a New Jerusalem over a New Earth.But as Todd said: "I don’t think ANYONE has it all figured out. What will happen will happen and the key is to be ready regardless. "Something more serious: "The calling and history of Israel, from beginning to end, is the greatest story of all of God, His mercy, His judgment and His unfailing love. It's a historical object lesson set forth for all the world to see. "That is a tragic statement !It might make interesting object lesson. But what we read in the OT are shadows, types and examples"Christ is at the heart of the Scriptures: he is patterned, promised, and present from Genesis onward..."(Desiring God )"He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature," (Hebrews 1v3)The greatest story about God, His Mercy and unfailing love is that “... God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. ... and Jesus "emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to death— even death on a cross. 9Therefore God exalted Him to the highest place and gave Him the name above all names,…(Phil. 2:7-9)Paul's letters are all about Jesus and the Gospel !Here I see the true problem and tragedy. doc,you write mainly about prophecies and Israel, but hardly about the Gospel and the unsearchable riches of Christ ! I think you try and find some kind of fulfillment and peace in what you are writing. But you will never find it in what you are doing, because it is all "In Christ alone..."I hope you will at least try and understand what I'm trying to say.Blessings and peace to you Markus
Excellent point Markus. We all get distracted by what should truly be our focus. Like Tozer said, “Jesus Christ is first and everything else is last.”
The foundation of all is the atoning death of a twice coming Messiah. In this Messiah are found the unsearchable riches.I don't see how the great object lesson of God's love in Christ for Israel eventually winning over the prodigal nation is a tragic statement.Meanwhile, Markus' words concerning me are highly presumptuous and wrong. But such is life on a forum many times.Thanks to BranchinVINE and others for their comments.Thank you and blessings.
_________________David Winter
Doc- it was this statement:"The calling and history of Israel, from beginning to end, is the greatest story of all of God, His mercy, His judgment and His unfailing love. It's a historical object lesson set forth for all the world to see.”It might be mincing words, but the greatest story of all is of course the gospel of Jesus Christ, not God’s dealings with Israel.
Hi TMK,I don't think that those are words that doc -- or anyone --would necessarily take issue with. Rather, it was this:
Here I see the true problem and tragedy. doc,you write mainly about prophecies and Israel, but hardly about the Gospel and the unsearchable riches of Christ !I think you try and find some kind of fulfillment and peace in what you are writing. But you will never find it in what you are doing, because it is all "In Christ alone..."I hope you will at least try and understand what I'm trying to say.
_________________Christopher
/It might be mincing words, but the greatest story of all is of course the gospel of Jesus Christ, not God’s dealings with Israel./What nation and people did God choose to bring the gospel of Jesus Christ to the world? God chose Abraham, and later Israel, not because of anything they had done or anything they deserved. It's the same with our salvation.In spite of their constant unfaithfulness, and even the rejection of the promised Messiah, God promised to never leave or forsake them (Jer 31:35-37; Romans 11:1). This is a glowing example of God's unchanging love for them which is in many ways the same with us. We were the chieftest of Christ rejecters but God did not abandon nor forsake us. He rather saved us out of sin and death and rebellion. Likewise, the gospel of Jesus Christ, will ultimately yet capture and triumph in the hearts of Israel the present prodigal nation. Much of this mirrors our own experience of salvation. Even as we continue to sin at times, God is not going to forsake us. I stand by my statement - "The calling and history of Israel, from beginning to end, is the greatest story of all of God, His mercy, His judgment and His unfailing love." It's a historical object lesson of which the central plot is the appearance of Christ and His work on behalf of Israel and the whole world. It's set forth for all the world to see. God's dealings with Israel are a clear mirror and a great demonstrable object lesson in many ways of our own salvation. If you want to understand a bit more about your own salvation and how it works, there are many things to be learned from God's dealings with Israel. The same with them the same with us in many ways.If you want to divorce the gospel of Jesus Christ from Israel, and God's dealings with them, then go ahead but I don't want any of it. I was allowed to participate in and become a partaker in the unsearchable riches of the gospel of Jesus Christ because of a covenant made with THEM (salvation is of the Jews). The history of God's dealings with them are very instructive for believers today. "All these things happened to them as examples , and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world have come" (I Cor 10:11).Prophecy can be seen as Christ putting the finishing touches on the work He began at His first advent. He is not at all through. Wanting to know about and understand these events is far from being distracted. The point about allegorical interpretations of prophecy, always minimizing Israel, is that some of them seem to me to be as far fetched and even at times as ludicrous as Markus' out of left field and incorrect psychoanalysis of my motives. You and him ignore statements from me (quoting Reggie) such as, "The foundation of all is the atoning work of a twice coming Messiah." Therein lies the gospel of Jesus Christ from which you imply I am distracted.But all is well. Thank you and thank you for your input although we don't always agree.Blessings.
Hi Christopher,I have not forgotten to give you a reply.First, You said to TMK:
I will point out that the purest basis for the Old Covenant was not in the Law of Moses but in an actual promise that God made to Abraham.
_________________Jade
Hi BranchinVINE,
God made the Abrahamic Covenant with Abraham and his seed, that is, Christ (Gal. 3:16).God made the Old /Mosaic Covenant NOT with Abraham BUT with Abraham’s natural descendants.These are therefore two very different covenants.
Hi Christopher,
I think that if you go back and read what I've previously written, you'll find that I tried to make this clear in all of my posts about this. In fact, I tried to point out the distinction between the original basis for the Old Covenant (in terms of the land promised) and the Covenant Law of Moses.
In Romans, Paul made this same distinct comparison -- pointing out that the basis for the Old Covenant was non-conditional and was born out of FAITH (i.e., "Then he believed the LORD; and He credited it to him as righteousness" [Genesis 15:6 and Romans 4:1-25]).