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Discussion Forum : Revivals And Church History : Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?

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Platy
Member



Joined: 2019/10/5
Posts: 98


 Re:

Just for the record I'm not a cessationist.

Your stating John 20:22 for the first blessing and then your stating Acts 2:3 for the second blessing. The problem is John 20:22 is before the cross. The apostles had to wait in the upper room to receive the Holy Spirit and they got it in the book of Acts. Acts 2:3 is when the Holy Spirit is given out for the first time. For Christians today those chapters are not applicable because we live post cross not pre cross. Do we need to wait another 40 days for the Holy Spirit to come down? Your making doctrine out of verses you should not be making doctrine out of. The gospels are before the cross and the book of Acts is a transitional book. This is the mistake you and a lot of other people are making and this is why there is so much confusion on this topic.

Why is there no command to seek a subsequent blessing in the epistles? When Jesus rebukes the churches in the book of Revelation why does he not mention this problem once?

 2021/2/23 23:19Profile
Platy
Member



Joined: 2019/10/5
Posts: 98


 Re:

"I have no problem with Martin Luther. Why do you think I will have? It shows that you have not understood my belief yet. It is understandable as I do not go to either extremes that you see in Christendom today."

"But sitting idle without asking anything as a powerless Christian, holding proudly to your theology is a wasted life. I see most Christians live such a life of powerless contentment."

Those are both your statements. Luther was a cessationist and I believe he still would be today. So you don't have any problem with cessationists (see your second statement above)? And how did Luther do what he did without the second blessing?

 2021/2/23 23:25Profile
BranchinVINE
Member



Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 804
Australia

 Re:


Sree, Is the Holy Spirit a Person or just a Power to you?


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Jade

 2021/2/23 23:32Profile
Platy
Member



Joined: 2019/10/5
Posts: 98


 Re:

"But Word of God is not constrained to the Bible. Jesus said man shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. Which means God is still speaking, he did not stop speaking after man canonized the Bible!

To be filled with the Holy Spirit is to have God's word spoken to us directly. We will live by God's word speaking to our hearts directly not through a book. But that word will always be in the same spirit as the written word which is the Bible. It is because God cannot contradict himself."

I don't have an issue with the general spirit of this statement.

"Which means God is still speaking, he did not stop speaking after man canonized the Bible!"

I don't know what you mean by this statement if you think the canon is still open?

"To be filled with the Holy Spirit is to have God's word spoken to us directly. We will live by God's word speaking to our hearts directly not through a book."

Then why does Ephesians state to speak to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord? The word of God richly dwell in you found in Colossians goes along with Psalms 1 and Joshua 1.

I've seen plenty of people prepare sermons without preparation. Those sermons tend to be the worst usually.

New testament command is to study to shew thyself approved. We don't need to study and prepare?

 2021/2/23 23:46Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1894


 Re:

Quote:

Your stating John 20:22 for the first blessing and then your stating Acts 2:3 for the second blessing. The problem is John 20:22 is before the cross.



Wow, John 20:22 is before the cross? John 20:22 happened after Jesus died on the cross and was resurrected. The disciples saw the resurrected Christ with their own eyes and believed in him. Hence they were born again. So Jesus breathed on them and gave the Holy Spirit to them. If the disciples did not receive the Holy Spirit in John 20:22 then it makes Jesus a liar. Acts 2 is the 2nd time the disciples received the Holy Spirit with Power as Jesus said in Acts 1:8. Hence they were able to be a living witness for Jesus after Pentecost. They had boldness which was lacking until 2nd blessing.

Again, I believe in 2nd blessing and it is scriptural. But I am not dogmatic about it and not willing to fight for it. I have no problem with someone who does not want to believe in 2nd blessing. I have no problem in believing someone who has received the baptism of the Holy Spirit in their first blessing itself. I also believe in continuous filling of the Holy Spirit. Please stop questioning me as if I am a person who is against one time blessing. Normally Christians who believe in 2nd blessing like me are against all other belief, but I am NOT. As long as a person has the power to be a witness to Christ both externally and internally, I have no problem with their belief. Hence I have no problem with Luther. You seem to not read my posts fully and quick to jump into conclusions.


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Sreeram

 2021/2/24 0:22Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1894


 Re:

Quote:

Fortunately, I doubt men like Luther "needed" to understand the doctrine before it was a reality. God is faithful. Just because you don't understand the exact mechanism of conversation before you are saved doesn't mean you won't get saved. It just means you don't understand what is happening to the greatest degree it can be understood.



This is a very good point. I own 2 cars but honestly I do not know the mechanism of Cars, but that does not mean I cannot drive a car! The same way a person may not understand how Holy Spirit works and how God can fill them with the Holy Spirit, but they can still be filled with the Holy Spirit.

Luther was raised by God with a particular purpose of bringing people back to Bible. God needed an imbalance man to solve the imbalance in the Christendom at Luther's time. But that does not mean everything that Luther believed is true. John the Baptist was sent by God to point people to Christ but that does not mean John had complete understanding of Christ. He ended up doubting Christ in prison.


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Sreeram

 2021/2/24 0:30Profile
BranchinVINE
Member



Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 804
Australia

 Re:

Hi Sree,

Quote:
………John 20:22 happened after Jesus died on the cross and was resurrected. The disciples saw the resurrected Christ with their own eyes and believed in him. Hence they were born again. So Jesus breathed on them and gave the Holy Spirit to them. If the disciples did not receive the Holy Spirit in John 20:22 then it makes Jesus a liar. Acts 2 is the 2nd time the disciples received the Holy Spirit with Power as Jesus said in Acts 1:8. Hence they were able to be a living witness for Jesus after Pentecost. They had boldness which was lacking until 2nd blessing.



What do you say to what I said to you in my post to you in the following thread (posted on 2021/2/7 2:46):

SEEKING THE FULLNESS OF CHRIST
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=63813&forum=35


Quote:
Hence they were born again.



Where in scripture is that written?

And, I ask again, "So when was Thomas born again?"
Please give scripture, not your assumption.


Quote:
If the disciples did not receive the Holy Spirit in John 20:22 then it makes Jesus a liar.



Is this the indwelling Spirit or a “sign” re: John 20:30?



Quote:
They had boldness which was lacking until 2nd blessing.



Is the indwelling Holy Spirit a Spirit without power? Is there another Holy Spirit that has power that comes as a “Second Blessing”?


Blessings


_________________
Jade

 2021/2/24 1:56Profile
Platy
Member



Joined: 2019/10/5
Posts: 98


 Re:

"Wow, John 20:22 is before the cross? John 20:22 happened after Jesus died on the cross and was resurrected."

Ok I stand corrected on that. Technically your right it happened after the cross but Jesus did not ascend up at that time so that the Holy Spirit could come down. What I said still holds its just my wording was incorrect.

The Holy Spirit was given for the first time in a general sense to the church in the book of Acts. We are not the eleven disciples who saw the resurrected Christ and he breathed on us. Again its still before he ascended up into heaven. That is not the experience that a Christian should be expecting now.

Even the use of the term second/third blessing signfies something of permanence as if you have the boldness for good. This is not what you see in the book of Acts. Also you can be right with God one day and the next day sin and be dry.

Acts 4:27-31 - 27 “For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done. 29 Now, Lord, look on their threats, and grant to Your servants that with all boldness they may speak Your word, 30 by stretching out Your hand to heal, and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Your holy Servant Jesus.” 31 And when they had prayed, the place where they were assembled together was shaken; and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and they spoke the word of God with boldness.

 2021/2/24 1:58Profile
Platy
Member



Joined: 2019/10/5
Posts: 98


 Re:

"But I am not dogmatic about it and not willing to fight for it. I have no problem with someone who does not want to believe in 2nd blessing."

Now you sure about that? :D

 2021/2/24 2:32Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1894


 Re:

Quote:

And, I ask again, "So when was Thomas born again?"
Please give scripture, not your assumption.




If your reasoning for rejecting John 20:22 is the absence of Thomas then you are free to believe it. I just consider it a poor reasoning. I believe I already gave you an answer in the other thread. You are free to believe what you want.

Quote:

Is the indwelling Holy Spirit a Spirit without power? Is there another Holy Spirit that has power that comes as a “Second Blessing”?



I consider this a valid question. I can explain my understanding further here.
Holy Spirit is the same person whom we receive when we are born again. It is the measure of the Holy Spirit that makes the difference.

When I was born again, I could clearly sense the presence of the Holy Spirit in my life, to bring me to repentance and produce a desire in me to hate sin. But I was still powerless to fight sin. I was also powerless to confess Christ. Since I came from a Hindu faith, I had to face persecution for my belief. I was scared of persecution and kept my faith as secret as possible.

But when God baptized me with His Holy Spirit, I overnight got the power to witness Christ boldly. I openly confessed to everyone that I am a Christian. I was still unprepared for persecution and it scared me, but it did not keep me from being a bold witness. I was also able to overcome sins which I could never overcome in the past. Bible became a different book.

So it was the same Holy Spirit who was working in me when I was born again and it was the same holy spirit working in me after the Baptism of Holy Spirit, but the measure was different.

I know you will ask me for scripture as personal experience is of no worth for most people here. Let us take the picture of the water from the temple that Ezekiel saw. But in God’s eyes it is our life that matters more than our theological understanding. Hence I always put my personal experience ahead.

Ezekiel 47-3:3 When the man went out toward the east with a line in his hand, he measured a thousand cubits, and he led me through the water, water reaching the ankles. 4 Again he measured a thousand and led me through the water, water reaching the knees. Again he measured a thousand and led me through the water, water reaching the hips. 5 Again he measured a thousand; and it was a river that I could not wade across, because the water had risen, enough water to swim in, a river that could not be crossed by wading.

There were different levels of water that Ezekiel measured here. At Ankle level, knee level, hip level and finally flowing as river. When the water level raised to be like a river, Ezekiel was no longer having his foot on the ground. He was lifted up and carried by the current of water. The same way when God baptizes us with his Holy Spirit our feet is lifted up to live a heavenly life. It is the same water but Ezekiel's experience was different.

Jesus too used similar words to explain the infilling of the Holy Spirit. He spoke in John 4:14 about wells of living water and then in John 7:28 about rivers of living water. It is the same living water but in different measures. But as mentioned in both the places we need to hunger and thirst for the Holy Spirit. Just being content with our powerless life will not help.


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Sreeram

 2021/2/24 6:39Profile





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