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billy1980
Member



Joined: 2016/3/9
Posts: 249


 Re:

2 Peter 2:19 “And so we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts.“

In love and pushing into this subject further for my instruction! Brethren what do you see this meaning.... “until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts.”

This has for many years always caught my spirit seeing there is indeed more, (added) a closer walk with Christ.


_________________
William

 2021/2/5 14:15Profile
Platy
Member



Joined: 2019/10/5
Posts: 98


 Re:

AbideinHim said:

"We should not be debating the Word of God. If we would share more scripture instead of our opinions concerning the interpretation of scripture, there would be fewer debates. Strife and arguing is not a sign of spiritual maturity but of carnality.
We should be using this forum to build up the Body in love. That is why Denominations are not of God, because they bring division to the Body of Christ instead of unity."

I disagree with some of the things you stated here. But that should be ok we can have disagreements as long we can have a healthy discussion and be mature about it. After all how can you possibly go through life agreeing with everything and everybody. Its not practical nor is it safe. For example, if somebody comes here and posts false doctrine you have would have to violate your own standards and there are actually people who promote false doctrine in the church and they use the same exact reasoning you presented. They will start playing the love card or they will getting start super spiritual all of a sudden.

I was invited to join a bible study a while back. The people in the bible study were of the prosperity gospel and cheap grace persuasion and they were following some of the most infamous blatant prosperity gospel teachers. Now prosperity gospel is a false gospel and I'm sure you guys would all agree with that (but then again I did see some word of faith guys in here so maybe not). Anyway we all took turns leading the bible study. Every week someone would exhort a chapter of the bible. Now of course when my turn came I would across non prosperity gospel passages and explain that to them and also I would warn of the prosperity gospel. You know what they did. They would start talking over me and just lead when it was my turn to lead. Then they wanted to turn the bible study into a prayer meeting. So it was originally advertised as a bible study but now all of sudden they want to turn into a prayer meeting. Do you think it was because they wanted to pray or for other obvious dishonest reasons? One guy actually said that lets just close the bible and just love one another. None of these people were genuine christians only by name. I think they even voted for Biden which should tell you a bit. The irony here was the whole time they were promoting their own viewpoints and then when they start hearing something thing they don’t like they either play the love card or start getting super spiritual. It actually becomes very cult like.

If you go out into the world and look at groups like LGBTQ. This is also the message they will preach. A message of tolerance. In fact this spirit of tolerance has infiltrated much of the church.

Now I don't know much about eschatology. I don't know even if I spelled it right. Some people think that there will be no rapture but that the church will be persecuted. Now if it is persecution what is the factor which determines whether we will be persecuted or not? The factor is whether we agree or not with the persecutors. If you don't agree you get persecuted. If you agree your off the hook. Its really that simple. The spirit of tolerance is what is going into overdrive out there and in the church today.

Every post on this forum is an opinion. Even when you share the word of God you have to explain it which then becomes an opinion. When you post articles written by others your posting your viewpoint indirectly. For example, BrothaGary was posting healing articles by A.B. Simpson. What do you think those articles contained? It was full of arguments and arguments are not a negative thing. A.B. Simpson was arguing for his view of healing. He was literally debating because he was listing common objections and reasoning against them. And by posting that stuff one is actually engaging in a debate indirectly.

Did you know the bible is full of arguments? How many times did Paul have disputations? How about Jesus? What about the prophets? What about the command in Jude to earnestly contend for the faith? So arguments themselves are not a bad thing.

Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. (I Corinthians 14:29). It doesn’t say that we remain silent and be accepting.

This is a public forum. Now obviously there are moderators and we are subject to the rules set forth by the moderators. If you post in a public forum your putting self up to scrutiny. This is a good thing for everybody. We don’t want to post things and have no accountabilty.

Anyway Mike I’m not accusing having a wrong spirit or anything but we want to make sure we are not engaging in dishonest tactics. Maybe I used wrong the word when I said “debate” how about a healthy, mature, and fair discussion.

Proverbs 27:17
Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.

 2021/2/5 20:54Profile
BranchinVINE
Member



Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 804
Australia

 Re:



Hi Sree,

Just a question:

Quote:
The disciples were born again in John 20:22 when they believed in the resurrection of Jesus. Hence they received the Holy Spirit. But the Baptism of Holy Spirit which means to be full of Holy Spirit or immersed in the Holy Spirit happened on the day of Pentecost.



Thomas was not there in John 20:22 so when was Thomas born again?

Blessings


_________________
Jade

 2021/2/6 6:52Profile
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3348
Texas

 Re: Platy

Platy said:

Quote:
But that should be ok we can have disagreements as long we can have a healthy discussion and be mature about it. After all how can you possibly go through life agreeing with everything and everybody. Its not practical nor is it safe. For example, if somebody comes here and posts false doctrine you have would have to violate your own standards and there are actually people who promote false doctrine in the church and they use the same exact reasoning you presented. They will start playing the love card or they will getting start super spiritual all of a sudden.



The example you used "if somebody comes here and posts false doctrine' is not a good example of the debates/discussions we're talking about. I believe Mike was referring to the everyday debates/discussions that are by existing members, not someone that come barging through the door, trying to cause strife by promoting a false gospel. That is a bad example to justify the strife caused by the everyday debates/discussions that I believe we're talking about.

It's pretty simple to understand what I think we're referring to. When debates/discussions begin to go downhill "as most I witnessed do" it's time for mature Christians to back out of the discussion/debate. Mike said "Strife and arguing is not a sign of spiritual maturity but of carnality." I agree 100%. just to reiterate, we were talking about discussions/debates that begin to go downhill.

You listed many good examples of discussions/debates and they're all good examples of good healthy discussions/debates, but the point or message here by Mike and others is, not the content, but the strife and division they cause when the discussions/debates turn into arguments. I personally have read some replies here on some threads, that would make Satan blush, this is what I'm personally referring to.


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Bill

 2021/2/6 9:39Profile
Platy
Member



Joined: 2019/10/5
Posts: 98


 Re:

Hi Bill,

We are back to square one. I am totally in agreement with you that debates can end up going downhill the disagreement is that Mike came and followed up saying we should not debate the word of God but share it. That is where the if comes in. If you are not allowed to debate the word of God what do you when false doctrine comes in. This is two different things. There is two sides of the ditch shutting down all discourse and bad behavior in posts.

When you share something you are inviting discourse/debate and that it is a safe thing.

 2021/2/6 10:44Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1894


 Re:

Quote:



Thomas was not there in John 20:22 so when was Thomas born again?




Simple in later verses when he saw the resurrected Jesus and called him his God. I am sure he also received the Holy Spirit when he believed in the resurrected Christ.

One may ask then why is it not recorded that Jesus breathed on Thomas. Holy Spirit is not always given the same way. For example in the Day of Pentecost, Holy Spirit was visibly seen decending as tongues of fire. But many after that who received the baptism of the Holy Spirit did not have such experience. Even Jesus received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit as a dove decending from heaven. It is not always the same manifestation.

Through all this God is teaching us not to put the work of the Holy Spirit in a box and say this is how He will work. But sadly most men do the exact opposite.


_________________
Sreeram

 2021/2/6 12:01Profile
billy1980
Member



Joined: 2016/3/9
Posts: 249


 Re:

Outside of our Lord’s Word many brothers and sisters who have left this world have had different experiences concerning this. I found J. Gilchrist Lawson’s book on Deeper Experiences of Famous Christians most helpful.

With many Christians throughout Christendom we have all read describing there experience.


_________________
William

 2021/2/6 14:15Profile
BranchinVINE
Member



Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 804
Australia

 Re:

Thank you, Sree, for your reply.

Quote:
Simple in later verses when he saw the resurrected Jesus and called him his God. I am sure he also received the Holy Spirit when he believed in the resurrected Christ.



This is an assumption. It is not written. I am sure you will also agree that we cannot stand on assumptions.

Consider these:

(1)

ALL THAT JESUS PERFORMED IN THE PRESENCE OF HIS DISCIPLES IN THE GOSPEL OF JOHN ARE “SIGNS” (OR, ATTESTING MIRACLES) WITH THE PURPOSE THAT WE MAY BELIEVE THAT JESUS IS THE CHRIST, THE SON OF GOD, AND THAT BELIEVING WE MAY HAVE LIFE IN HIS NAME.

Immediately following John 20:19-29, this is written:

John 20:30-31 –
Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

Therefore, what Jesus performed in John 20:19-29 are “signs”.

He performed these 2 signs:

Firstly, He showed them His hands and side. This is the “sign” (or, attesting miracle) of His resurrection.

Secondly, He breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit”. I suggest that is the “sign” of the Holy Spirit that will coming to indwell them. It was not the occasion of their new birth.

Thomas was not there.

Eight days later, the Lord appeared to His disciples again when Thomas was with them.

The Lord Jesus then showed Thomas His hands and side, the “sign” of His resurrection, and Thomas saw and believed. But it is not written that He breathed the Holy Spirit into Thomas. Instead, He said to Thomas:

John 20:29 –
Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you now believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”

I suggest that Thomas joined the blessed company of believers who were not given a “sign” (or, attesting miracle) and yet believed in the coming of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

1 Pet. 12:8-9 –
and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.


(2)
THE HOLY SPIRIT WAS POURED OUT ON THE DAY OF PENTECOST TO INDWELL BELIEVERS

Acts 1:4-5 –
Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for WHAT THE FATHER HAD PROMISED, "WHICH," HE SAID, "YOU HEARD OF FROM ME; for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

This is what the Father had promised which they had heard from Him:

John 14:16-17 –
I WILL ASK THE FATHER, AND HE WILL GIVE YOU ANOTHER HELPER, THAT HE MAY BE WITH YOU FOREVER; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you, AND WILL BE IN YOU.

This is the Holy Spirit who would come to INDWELL THEM FOREVER and give them power to witness.

Acts 1:8 –
but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.


The Lord Jesus had declared:

John 16:17 –
But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; FOR IF I DO NOT GO AWAY, THE HELPER WILL NOT COME TO YOU; but if I go, I will send Him to you.

Comment:
The “Helper” re: John 14:16, that is, the Holy Spirit to indwell believers.


The Lord Jesus went away into heaven in Acts 1:9. Therefore the Spirit the disciples received in John 20:22 cannot be the indwelling Holy Spirit but a special filling. And therefore, AFTER He went away, on the Day of Pentecost, the Holy Spirit poured out on believers was the Helper who would indwell them forever.

Following is an extract from “An Humble, Affectionate and Earnest Address to the Clergy” by William Law (1686-1761):

Quote:
For everything in the life, or religion of man, that has not the Spirit of God for its mover, director, and end, be it what it will, is but earthly, sensual, or devilish. The truth and perfection of the gospel state could not show itself, till it became solely a ministration of the Spirit, or a kingdom in which the Holy Spirit of God had the doing of all that was done in it. The apostles, whilst Christ was with them in the flesh, were instructed in heavenly truths from his mouth, and enabled to work miracles in his Name, yet not qualified to know and teach the mysteries of his kingdom. After his resurrection, he conversed with them forty days, speaking to them of things pertaining to the kingdom of God; nay though he breathed on them, and said, "receive ye the Holy Ghost," yet this also would not do, they were still unable to preach, or bear witness to the truth, as it is in Jesus. And the reason is, there was still a higher dispensation to come, which stood in such an opening of the divine life in their hearts, as could not be effected from an outward instruction of Christ himself. For though he had sufficiently told his disciples the necessity of being born again of the Spirit, yet he left them unborn of it, till he came again in the power of the Spirit. He breathed on them, and said, "Receive ye the Holy Ghost," yet that which was said and done was not the thing itself, but only a type or outward signification of what they should receive, when he, being glorified, should come again in the fullness and power of the Spirit, breaking open the deadness and darkness of their hearts with light and life from heaven, which light did, and alone could, open and verify in their souls, all that he had said and promised to them whilst he was with them in the flesh. All this is expressly declared by Christ himself, saying unto them, "I tell you the truth, it is expedient for you that I go away"; therefore Christ taught them to believe the want, and joyfully to expect the coming of a higher and more blessed state, than that of his bodily presence with them. For he adds, "if I go not away, the comforter will not come"; therefore the comfort and blessing of Christ to his followers could not be had, till something more was done to them, and they were brought into a higher state than they could be by his verbal instruction of them. "But if I go away," says he, "I will send him unto you, and when the comforter, the Spirit of truth is come, he will guide you into all truth; he shall glorify me" (that is, shall set up my kingdom in its glory, in the power of the Spirit) "for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it unto you: I said of mine, because all things that the Father hath are mine," John xvi.

Now when Christ had told them of the necessity of an higher state than that they were in, and the necessity of such a comforting illuminating guide, as they could not have till his outward teaching in human language was changed into the inspiration, and operation of his Spirit in their souls, he commands them, not to begin to bear witness of him to the world, from what they did and could in an human way know of him, his birth his life, doctrines, death, sufferings, resurrection, but to tarry at Jerusalem, till they were endued with power from on high; saying unto them, "Ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you. And then shall ye bear witness unto me, both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and unto the utmost part of the earth."

Here are two most important and fundamental truths fully demonstrated, First, that the truth and perfection of the gospel state could not take place, till Christ was glorified, and his kingdom among men made wholly and solely a continual immediate ministration of the Spirit: everything before this was but subservient for a time, and preparatory to this last dispensation, which could not have been the last, had it not carried man above types, figures and shadows, into the real possession and enjoyment of that which is the spirit and truth of a divine life. For the end is not come till it has found the beginning; that is, the last dispensation of God to fallen man cannot be come, till putting an end to the "bondage of weak and beggarly elements," Gal. iv.9, it brings man to that dwelling in God, and God in him, which he had at the beginning.

Secondly, that as the apostles could not, so no man, from their time to the end of the world, can have any true and real knowledge of the spiritual blessings of Christ's redemption, or have a divine call, capacity, or fitness to preach, and bear witness of them to the world, but solely by that same divine Spirit opening all the mysteries of a redeeming Christ in their inward parts, as it did in the apostles, evangelists, and first ministers of the gospel.

For why could not the apostles, who had been eye witnesses to all the whole process of Christ, why could they not with their human apprehension declare and testify the truth of such things, till they "were baptized with fire, and born again of the Spirit"? It is because the truth of such things, or the mysteries of Christ's process, as knowable by man, are nothing else in themselves, but those very things which are done by this heavenly fire and Spirit of God in our souls. Therefore to know the mysteries of Christ's redemption, and to know the redeeming work of God in our own souls, is the same thing; the one cannot be before, or without the other. Therefore every man, be he who he will, however able in all kinds of human literature, must be an entire stranger to all the mysteries of gospel redemption, and can only talk about them as of any other tale he has been told, till they are brought forth, verified, fulfilled, and witnessed to by that, which is found, felt and enjoyed of the whole process of Christ in his soul. For as redemption is in its whole nature an inward spiritual work, that works only in the altering, changing, and regenerating the life of the soul, so it must be true, that nothing but the inward state of the soul can bear true witness to the redeeming power of Christ.




We have a tender and loving Saviour and I believe He gives new believers special anointing and gifts to kick-start their Christian life and He remains our Helper to the end (Heb. 13:5-6).


In the final analysis, it is not the correctness of our doctrines but the correctness of our lives that counts. And the only life that is acceptable to God is the life led wholly by the indwelling Spirit of God.


Blessings



_________________
Jade

 2021/2/7 2:46Profile





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