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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Shoud Christians fight for abortion laws?

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Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1878


 Re:

Quote:

First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. 1 Tim 2:1-2

Your thinking doesn't line up with scripture; we are urged to pray for Kings and Politicians this is the place Christian should get involved with politics and the shaping civil law.




Totally unscriptural. We are asked to pray for people in power so that we might find mercy in their eyes to worship our God with full freedom. The only thing we are asked to pray is freedom for Christians. Not for Christians to even influence civil laws. This is taking things that the scriptures do not ask us to do. This does not even in the slightest ounce sound like Christians should take part in politics! Even a 6-year-old who can read 1 Timothy 2, will not come to this conclusion. The difference is the 6-year-old does not have personal agendas hence it can plainly see what the scripture says but we are using scripture to justify our personal agendas.

Quote:

Is there a valid hope to influence nations for the glory of God? A quick look at history tells us that, yes, the gospel really can and should change nations.




There is a huge world of difference between gospel changing the nations and we changing the nation using politics! Gospel changes the nation by changing men inside out. By changing their value system. But when we do it via politics we are placing burden and laws upon uncovered souls. When we do by the gospel we bring glory to God but when we do by involving in politics we bring Shame to the name of God like what happened in the capital few weeks back.

Clearly, you are extending scripture by adding things that scripture does not say. This is dangerous and destructive.


_________________
Sreeram

 2021/1/28 17:02Profile
havok20x
Member



Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 874


 Re:

*sigh*

Sree, due the lack of answering any of the questions I have posed to you, the refusal to engage with others in the forum regarding their questions and objections to your position, and the lack of Scriptural support for anything that you have said, I am forced to no longer continue discussing this with you.

If you are trying to win a debate, here ya go. You win. Congratulations. I concede.

If you're trying to make a theological statement, you're doing a poor job. What little truth you have said is clouded by the radical and ungodly ideas you are associating with them.



 2021/1/28 17:55Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1878


 Re: havok20x

so many places in this thread I have appreciated the answers given by people who disagree with me. This is a discussion. I have clearly explained 1 Tim 2:2 which was explained incorrectly by another poster here. There is no proof in New Covenant of Jesus or Apostles involving in Politics nor trying to influence civil law. So anyone who calls me theologically wrong has to post scriptures that proves me wrong. There is none that shows that Christians can involve in politics.

One may not agree with my perception that is because most of the posters here have the western mentality and MAY NOT have suffered persecution for their faith in the hands of heathen in a heathen nation. Once a person goes through that they will understand what Christians do in the USA by influencing the politics and civil law is clearly wrong.


_________________
Sreeram

 2021/1/28 19:30Profile
drifter
Member



Joined: 2005/6/6
Posts: 747
Campbell River, B.C.

 Re:

Since when did the Old Testament become invalid? We see people like Joseph, Daniel and Esther being used by God in ungodly governments. God is fully capable of raising up godly politicians to do His will.


_________________
Nigel Holland

 2021/1/28 20:42Profile
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1569
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Quote: Not for Christians to even influence civil laws.

You miss the point - as soon as you pray for a politician or a King we are inserting ourselves into politics which will in the end influence and change civil laws.

Quote: There is a huge world of difference between gospel changing the nations and we changing the nation using politics!

You cannot separate the two - Gospel(Christian message) and people. The Gospel can't change anything without christians people to bring the Gospel(Christian message) - It is the faith of those christians that causes them to do, it is faith that cause them to go and make disciples of all nations.

I gave you two examples of men one who changed civil law and one ho brought religious, social, economic and political change to a nation.

1. William Wilberforce who worked to change civil law.
2. Hans Nielsen Hauge who brought religious, social, economic
and political change to Norway




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Colin Murray

 2021/1/29 9:28Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1878


 Re:

Quote:

You miss the point - as soon as you pray for a politician or a King we are inserting ourselves into politics which will in the end influence and change civil laws.




This is true, by our prayers if we are influencing the civil laws that is a different story. But my quesion is should we fight to keep the civil law in line with Bible?

Quote:

I gave you two examples of men one who changed civil law and one ho brought religious, social, economic and political change to a nation.

1. William Wilberforce who worked to change civil law.
2. Hans Nielsen Hauge who brought religious, social, economic
and political change to Norway





I don't know about either of them, but I know about MLK in the USA. He was a renowned Pastor. He fought against the unjust laws against a particular race. He even joined hands with politicians to bring a change in civil laws.

His justification was - "when we fight against an unjust law, it is same as obeying a just law". The unjust law in our discussion can also be abortion laws. So according to MLK, there is nothing wrong if a Christian fights against abortion laws, nor join hands with politicians to abolish it.

Even though I respect what MLK has achieved, I don't know if it is a Christian way. To fight against civil laws to bring a change even for the right reason, is that a Christian way?

For example, Jesus was once asked a question about paying tax to Caesar. It was clearly unjust law to tax the Jews in their own land by a foreigner. But Jesus said give to Caesar what is Caesar's. So even if the law is unjust, just obey it for the sake of conscience.

Jesus also taught his disciples to obey the Pharisees in because they sit at Moses' seat. But not to follow their example. He never encouraged rebellion against authorities unless there is a loss of our freedom to worship our God.


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Sreeram

 2021/1/29 9:56Profile
savannah
Member



Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2113


 Re: influencing...suffering...persecution...heathen nation



"...what Christians do in the USA by influencing the politics and civil law..."

...might be the reason why Americans...

"...MAY NOT have suffered persecution for their faith in the hands of heathen in a heathen nation."

https://endabortionnow.com/video_posts/arguing-with-a-planned-parenthood-supporter/

 2021/1/29 15:38Profile
JFW
Member



Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 1508
Dothan, Alabama

 Re: strategy not tactics ~

1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.


_________________
Fletcher

 2021/1/29 20:23Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1878


 Re:


A W Tozer quote -
The teachings of Jesus belong to the Church, not to society, for in society is sin, and sin is hostility to God! Christ did not teach that He would impose His teachings upon the fallen world. He called His disciples to Him and taught them, and everywhere throughout His teachings there is the overt or implied idea that His followers will constitute an unpopular minority group in an actively hostile world. The divine procedure is to go into the world of fallen men, preach to them the necessity to repent and become disciples of Christ and, after making disciples, to teach them "the ethics of Jesus," which Christ called "all things which I have commanded you." The ethics of Jesus cannot be obeyed or even understood until the life of God has come to the heart of a man or woman in the miracle of the new birth. The righteousness of the law is fulfilled in those who walk in the Spirit. Christ lives again in His redeemed followers the life He lived in Judea, for righteousness can never be divorced from its source, which is Jesus Christ Himself!


I thought this quote is in line to what I am trying to say here.


_________________
Sreeram

 2021/1/31 21:16Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1894


 Re:

Hi All,
God raises up,kings,queens democratic leaders or at least allows them to take positions.
It doesnt mean that all of these leaders elected or not are going to be unsaved.It doesnt mean that a Godly leader cant make,influence and enact Godly laws.Unsaved people will benefit from Godly laws as will the Godly.
Jesus never taught that people in political authority of whatever kind could or would not be saved.Godly political leaders can only do Godly things which includes making and enacting Godly laws.
Their were times when society was openly hostile against Christians as happened with Paul and their were times that society were not openly hostile to Christians as happened with Billy Graham.

Billy Graham once said, “I know it’s common today to think of abortion as a simple answer to an inconvenient problem—but it is actually a far more serious issue. Your child isn’t simply a mass of tissue; he or she is a human being in God’s eyes.”
----------==============
They are a human in God's eyes and the God who heard the innocent blood of Abel cry up from the ground also hears the cry of the blood of millions of children from the ground.

Millions of Children ,many who would have become born again and many of these would have preached the Gospel.God has a responsiblity to these millions who are his Children.
As well as preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ we are to be truthful and be on the side of truth.We cant turn a blind eye to wrong doing to the defenceless.God still does not condone or turn a blind eye to murder.

Should William Wilbourforce have fought relentlessly to end slavery in the British empire?
Was Abraham Lincoln wrong to fight to stop slavery in the USA?
Was Martin Luther King wrong to protest and break the law to stop discrimination of black people?

Galatians

10 So then while we have opportunity, let’s do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith

Surely doing good to all people also includes unborn babies .Can we do anymore good of a thing for them than working to enact laws that protect them and recognize them as humans and Gods children?
urs staff




 2021/1/31 22:23Profile





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