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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Taking Covid vaccine as a Christian.

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deogloria
Member



Joined: 2020/2/12
Posts: 96


 Re:

Simple Servant
I edited my post several days ago, you obviously didn't read it.
Here are some news from Norway:
"The Norwegian Medicines Agency on Thursday (NZT Friday)reported a total of 29 people had suffered side effects, 13 of them fatal. All the deaths occurred among patients in nursing homes and all were over the age of 80." (AP)
Edit:
Update about the situation in Norway - Bloomberg
Norwegian Medicines Agency -
“There are 13 deaths that have been assessed, and we are aware of another 16 deaths that are currently being assessed,” the agency said.

 2021/1/17 18:19Profile
drifter
Member



Joined: 2005/6/6
Posts: 747
Campbell River, B.C.

 Re:

I believe vaccine passports will in all likelihood become mandatory, sooner or later. Without one, no one will be able to travel or hold a job. This is foreshadowing and conditioning to what is coming.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIKWhp2_eyM&ab_channel=CNBC


_________________
Nigel Holland

 2021/1/17 23:10Profile
Kerygma1975
Member



Joined: 2020/12/28
Posts: 37


 Re:

"Simple Servant
I edited my post several days ago, you obviously didn't read it.
Here are some news from Norway:
"The Norwegian Medicines Agency on Thursday (NZT Friday)reported a total of 29 people had suffered side effects, 13 of them fatal. All the deaths occurred among patients in nursing homes and all were over the age of 80." (AP)
Edit:
Update about the situation in Norway - Bloomberg
Norwegian Medicines Agency -
“There are 13 deaths that have been assessed, and we are aware of another 16 deaths that are currently being assessed,” the agency said."


Yes, I read your posts. I do not agree with you, nor do I simply read some articles and make large statements. There are adverse reactions to all sorts of vaccines, even the flu shot.


_________________
Simple Servant

 2021/1/18 14:01Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4554


 Re:

I know several people who have been vaccinated for COVID-19. So far, none of them have any notable side effects.

By the way, I participated in an online focus group several months ago. It turns out that it was focused on the topic of vaccination distribution.

I was surprised at the bipolar nature that people took. Some of the people were adamantly pro-vaccine and others were adamantly anti-vaccine. As these groups shared their views, there was a sharp rift in the discussion.

The pro-vaccine people even stated that they would not allow their children to play with children who don't have vaccinations. They claimed that it was a "danger" for their own children.

I was puzzled.

I explained that vaccinations actually PROTECT those who are vaccinated from the diseases and contagions of those who are not. So, if anything, the children with vaccinations are largely protected from the diseases of which the non-vaccinated children might carry.

I pointed out that vaccine effectiveness is usually in the 95-99% range -- meaning that very few of those who are vaccinated are in danger of the disease or contagion that they are vaccinated from. There is also a "herd immunity" that comes from societies that are largely vaccinated.

This herd immunity means that people who are not vaccinated (or the tiny fraction of people for which the vaccination is not effective) enjoy a form of herd immunity protection. This is because the widespread vaccination eliminates and greatly impedes the ability to carry and transmit the virus/disease.

This is understood via the polio vaccine. If you take two doses of the commonly available polio vaccine, it has a 90% effectiveness. However, a third dose lifts the vaccine effectiveness between 99-100%. Most people now have four doses of this particular course of vaccinations.

However, there is a subset of people who stopped their vaccinations at one or two doses. Yet, the last recorded infection of polio in the U.S. (from the U.S.) was in 1979. The last time polio was brought into the U.S. from a foreign country was 1993.

This is a stark contrast from the 1940s where more than 35,000 children per year were afflicted with polio. The advent of the polio vaccinations -- the original trivalent inactivated poliovirus vaccine (IPV) in 1955 and the trivalent oral poliovirus vaccine (OPV) in 1963 -- effectively ended polio in the U.S. within a short time period. There were less than 100 recorded polio cases in the U.S. during the 1960s and less than 10 during the 1970s.

I completely understand the concerns about vaccinations. However, vaccinations (in general) aren't part of any sort of widespread conspiracy. There are people who believe that vaccines cause damage or even disease in children.

Such individuals often point to the rise of autism or other conditions. However, other nations using those same vaccines (most are designed and manufactured in the U.S.) don't see the same autism rate increases. Thus, with "all things being equal," we can largely rule out vaccinations alone as the cause of any sort of spike in rates of autism.

Obviously, vaccinations carry a calculated risk. The same is true of aspirin, ibuprofen, acetaminophen/paracetamol or any medication. However, the benefits of vaccinations are undeniable.

While only two diseases have been considered entirely eradicated by vaccinations (smallpox and rinderpest), there are lists of diseases that have nearly been largely eradicated once vaccinations became widely available. Diseases like polio, diphtheria, mumps, rotavirus, measles, whooping cough, Hib, rubella, hepatitis A/B and tetanus are extremely rare due to the advent of their respective vaccines.

So, what should the Christian position be?

My biggest issue with both pro-vaccine and anti-vaccine people is that there are some who take a dogmatic "must accept" stand on vaccines. For some, you would assume that there was a clear passage in the Scriptures about vaccinations. The fact is that there is not a single passage in Scripture that clearly covers vaccinations. At best, people loosely interpret the Scriptures in regard to such matters.

Now, there are CLEAR concerns about issues pertaining to vaccinations. The idea that aborted fetal cells may or may not be used either in the development or trials is VERY concerning to believers. Unfortunately, there is quite a bit of misinformation about this (sadly from either conspiracy and/or faith-based alternative "health" websites).

To be very clear in regard to the COVID-19 vaccines: None of these American vaccines developed used aborted fetal cells in their vaccines. However, both Pfizer and Moderna did use fetal cells for testing the effectivity confirmation tests.

This doesn't mean that they used aborted fetal "tissue." Rather, this means that cells were extracted from aborted fetuses during the 1970s and 1980s. Those cells were incubated and allowed to multiply over the decades since. The descended cells from the originals have been used in many tests for medication ever since.

The most commonly cited fetal cells used in research are HEK-293. These were derived from a lab in the Netherlands. While the origin of this particular line of cells is not clear, there is a degree of likelihood that these cells were taken from an aborted baby.

Now, the spiritual and moral concerns regarding this are obvious. These particular cells were gathered following a baby's death. The descended cells (that have been subsequently multiplied) have been used in medical research and pharmaceutical testing ever since.

At the same time, these descended cells are utilized in testing the safety of medications and vaccines in the effort to prove efficacy or limit adverse effects. Thus, it can be argued by some that those descended cell lines actually "save" lives. Yet, the spiritual and moral concerns pertaining to their use are still undeniable to many Christians.

I had a discussion with some believers about this once. They pointed to the thought of using aborted cells in vaccines as their greatest obstacle. However, when I pointed out that we can know precisely which vaccines used them IN TESTING (and not in the actual vaccine) and which didn't even use them at all, they admitted that they were "still opposed" to vaccines in general.

Between questioning the general validity of vaccines to the conspiracy theories oft-repeated by anti-vax websites, there was enough in them to cause them to hesitate even if the aforementioned greatest issue wasn't true.

To those believers, they saw vaccines as a type of or foreshadow of the "mark of the beast" -- and "acceptance of this world's systems." One of them even suggested that the mark of the beast would be a vaccine derived from the "cellular line of the antichrist."

I suppose that I can understand those concerns. Yet, at the same time, I do have an issue with presenting those concerns -- rooted in highly suspect interpretations of Scripture and selective use of a very limited source of medical sources -- when they are used to pronounce an ultimatum to (or upon) believers.

One of the people that I mentioned earlier told me that accepting a vaccination was akin to "eternal damnation" (but only if it is done already knowing "the truth" that he told them).

This actually bothers me. This person was so strongly convinced of his own interpretation of vaccinations that he was willing to declare vaccination as an unpardonable sin. Of course, that person was convinced that we were already in the middle of the Great Tribulation -- and this discussion took place a little over eight years ago. I'm not sure what he thinks of this now (since he hasn't spoken to me since).

Personally, I would not have a problem with taking the COVID-19 vaccine. Now, I have the added advantage of not being at-risk. So, I wouldn't be permitted to get the vaccine until those who are at greater risk (including the elderly, those with preexisting medical issues and front-line medical professionals) are already vaccinated. I suppose that they are something of "guinea pigs" for the rest of us.

To be very clear: I have no problem with individuals who choose to NOT be vaccinated. I totally understand their qualms, concerns and questions. At the same time, I understand that there are risks associated both with and, to a much greater extent, without vaccines.


_________________
Christopher

 2021/1/18 14:13Profile
drifter
Member



Joined: 2005/6/6
Posts: 747
Campbell River, B.C.

 Re:

This virus has a 99.5%+ percent survival rate. If people want to get a vaccine, they are welcome to. However, I am a healthy, 35 year old man. My immune system functions just fine. I don't need a vaccine; I would rather get the virus and let my immune system do naturally what a vaccine would do artificially. Herd immunity can be reached by letting low risk segments of the population get the virus and fight it off. Once you get it, and your immune system defeats it, you have immunity (most likely for life).


_________________
Nigel Holland

 2021/1/18 18:30Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4554


 Re:

Hi drifter,

I feel somewhat similar to you. I am very healthy. As far as I know, I have never contracted the flu. I rarely get sick (strange because my wife is a teacher and is around plenty of sick children). I have rarely visited a doctor's office or emergency room.

Most people who contract COVID-19 are not at risk of death. In fact, the only people who are at a truly heightened risk (compared with the mode) from COVID-19 are the elderly (particularly those with weakened immune systems) and individuals with very specific preexisting conditions (namely pulmonary and coagulator issues). Others who contract COVID-19 are likely to get better within ten days.

At the same time, "herd immunity" is a little more complex than "let people get it." Instead, it requires the majority of a population contracting a disease and surviving through it.

Herd immunity can be achieved; however, it would have some notable costs and tradeoffs.

For herd immunity to happen, most people will need to contract COVID-19. This coronavirus has contraction-mortality rate of 1.66% (total number of contractions divided by total number of deaths) in the United States. Thus, if half of Americans contracted COVID-19, this particular rate would mean that more than 2.5 Million Americans would die from it.

This rate might actually go up because hospitals and emergency rooms across America would run out of room. As of 2018, hospitals and clinics in America had a capacity of less than 1 Million beds (for ALL medical issues).

The mortality rate from COVID-19 takes into account those who have contracted the disease but survived after hospitalization (largely from medical care). Thus, it is likely that there would be a shortage of hospital beds during a herd immunity attempt -- which is why most nations opted against trying to achieve herd immunity with COVID-19.

Of course, you mentioned allowing "low risk segments of the population" to get the virus and fight it off. Consequently, the people most at risk would never reach "herd immunity." They would simply hope that the rest of society becomes immune to it. This is a process that would take years. Thus, this would mean YEARS of quarantine before herd immunity is viable.

More importantly, even if this was the choice method of fighting a pandemic, it is nearly impossible for a society to achieve herd immunity during a time of mass quarantine. Herd immunity requires most people to contract the virus in a short period of time. This just isn't going to happen because government leaders will not allow it. Thus, herd immunity is virtually impossible to be achieved by this particular method.

In the centuries past, it was easier for societies to achieve herd immunity. After all, there was little option to fight a pandemic. Hospitals were "few and far between." Medicine itself was not advanced enough to properly treat ailments (let alone "cure" them).

Even communication efforts were limited. Before the advent of the internet, television or radio, people relied upon newspapers to spread the word about outbreaks (and what to do). Unfortunately, "yellow journalism" was as much of an issue then as it is now.

Now, the grand irony is that herd immunity is an effort to gain the same type of immunity that is achieved through vaccines. If anything, a vaccine provides what would be instant immunity rather than the slower (and more deadly) efforts at achieving herd immunity.

There are questions as to whether vaccines would allow generational antibodies the same way that herd immunity did in the past.

For instance, I have a particular gene variation known as "CCR5-Delta 32." This is a gene variation found in a small segment of Caucasians -- particularly those descended from northern European ancestors (most strongly associated with Scandinavia).

This gene variation offers very strong immunity from diseases like smallpox, bubonic plague and even HIV/AIDS. It is believed that this gene variation was due to a mutation derived from segments of northern European populations that achieved herd immunity during the Black Plague (between 1346 and 1352) or, probably, an earlier yet similar plague outbreak.

In roughly six years, the Black Plague decimated entire villages and cities. Between 75 Million and 200 Million people died -- killing between 30-60% of Europe's population. Yet, certain communities and families were barely effected. This was due to the CCR5-Delta 32 gene variation.

Interestingly, the Black Plague originated in Asia. Yet, it killed Europeans and Northern Africans at a much higher rate. This may have been the result of certain Asian areas having achieved some form of herd mentality of that particular strain.

Despite six years of mass death, the Black Plague didn't really end in Europe from herd immunity. Rather, it ended because they developed the concept of "quarantine." Venetians began a policy of quarantining sailors aboard ships for 30 days. This caused an almost immediate reduction in the spread the plague. Word spread and it became the de facto method of fighting the plague. Many people died -- but the rate of death stopped due to quarantine.

It is possible that herd immunity might have eventually been achieved. Yet, the cost associated with it would have been too high.

I'm certainly not in the "shut down the entire country" crowd. I think that there is a way to protect those who are most at risk (i.e., the elderly and those with preexisting media conditions) without shutting down or locking down everyone else.

Most deaths are the ones that I mentioned. The rest of us who contract COVID-19 will recover. I live in California. This perpetual state of lockdown (largely since March 2020) has been very hard. It would have been better to secure those at risk without forcing the entire state into a virtual exile.

The vaccines are now available (after President Trump's "Operation Warp Speed" initiative). Once a majority of Americans are vaccinated (or recovered), it will be safer for those who are most at-risk of mortality.

In a deeper sense, I believe that this pandemic should give everyone some pause and reflection.

A medical doctor was recently asked by a classroom of children to explain what it is that he does. He responded with the canned answer, "I save lives."

Later, he came to the realization that this isn't accurate. No matter what he does, people will STILL DIE. In fact, apart from an end-of-all-things events, all of us, everyone we know and everyone we have ever known will ultimately die.

This doctor isn't "saving lives." Rather, he realized that through his best efforts, he can only DELAY death. From the moment that we are born, we will eventually die.

From the perspective of our faith in Christ, we realize that everything that happens AFTER we die is determined by what we did during this short time called "life." Namely, did we believe in and surrender our lives to the One who created all things and gave his life for us?

If so, then "to live is Christ but to die is gain." If not, then that is a change that needs to take place immediately.


_________________
Christopher

 2021/1/19 14:30Profile
dolfan
Member



Joined: 2011/8/23
Posts: 1711
Tennessee, but my home's in Alabama

 Re:

My wife has been around dozens who have died after contracting COVID. It is her job. It continues.

My 59 year old sister recently contracted it and went from mild symptoms to hospitalization with pneumonia related to the worsening severity. She developed a blood clot and is (as of yesterday) at home on blood thinners and pulling through the worse parts of the sickness itself.

I've been one who was skeptical of the CDC and everything connected with COVID. I still am in many ways. But, in spite of all the machinations, manufactured data, manipulated facts, misinformation, disinformation and outright deception and blind guesses -- old people are still dying from it. Middle aged people are dying from it. I've had 2 former clients in otherwise normal health die from COVID with no comorbidities.

So, I've dialed back on my critiques. I don't know enough about it (and, honestly, I don't think anyone really does, especially policymakers and even many physicians) to base opinions about large social issues on what I know. Of course, the government is still the government, so I'll never believe them anyway.

But, I wear a mask. I more or less stay home. I'll likely get the vaccination in due time. And, I'll hope and pray mutations don't skirt whatever good the vaccinations may do in slowing this thing down. It isn't going away. We will ultimately have to manage our lives with it.

One thing we cannot do: turn on each other inside the body of Christ over it. We are one in Christ, and the division of believers in Him over this or any other social ill better be worth defending to our Judge. We need each other.


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Tim

 2021/1/19 14:44Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1891


 Re:

Quote:

Most people who contract COVID-19 are not at risk of death. In fact, the only people who are at a truly heightened risk (compared with the mode) from COVID-19 are the elderly (particularly those with weakened immune systems) and individuals with very specific preexisting conditions (namely pulmonary and coagulator issues). Others who contract COVID-19 are likely to get better within ten days.




I don't believe it is 100% true. I know people with no previous health issues getting affected drastically.

I myself had a very bad flu during Jan 2020 and was sick for 2 weeks. After I recovered, I had to be hospitalized for something serious (within 2 weeks of recovery). I was last month talking to my primary care physician and she related my flu to my hospitalization. She said many got COvid without even knowing in Jan 2020 as the virus became well known only in late Feb and March 2020. So the blood clot that formed due to covid could have caused my serious hospitalization case. When I was in that serious health condition, the doctors could not point out any reason for my sudden health deterioration. I believe all could be Covid related. There is a very good possibility. I am in my 30s and in decent health.

I see Christians taking 2 different extreme stands on Covid.
1. Christians who think Covid is a conspiracy and do not take social distancing seriously. They do not care about vaccines and call it some mark of beast etc. The same people when they get a heart attack or stroke will embrace modern-day medicine but when it comes to things like Covid they will not believe doctors! Hypocrites.

2. Christians who are anxious about the virus, live in fear and stop meeting people altogether. They keep anxiously waiting for the vaccine as if that is their only hope. Again a Christian should not be anxious about anything, especially about death as Jesus took the fear of death away from us (Heb 2:15).

I always believe the truth is in the middle. One should do his part in following social distancing. One should not tempt God in the name of faith by not wearing masks! Jesus himself commanded us not to tempt God by jumping from the temple! At the same time, we should not be anxious about vaccines. Just like we trust our doctors when it comes to matters of life and death like heart attack and stroke, we should also trust them with vaccines and take them. I wish Christians were simple in their thought process instead of complicating things around them. Jesus was always a simple person with the simple thought process.


I don't believe Jesus will ask anyone why they took the vaccine. No one will lose their salvation by taking it. Taking a vaccine no matter how it is made, will not affect your salvation one bit. It will not affect your walk with Christ one bit. To pure all things are pure, if you have a pure conscience then you dont need to worry about all these things. But when people ignore pure conscience and live in Sin they try to compensate their impure conscience by beliving in conspiracy theories and some external purity, like do not touch and do not eat etc!

Taking or not taking COvid vaccine is like the teaching of apostle in Colossians 2:20 -

20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as 21 “Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!” 22 which all refer to things destined to perish with use—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of man? 23 These are matters which do have the [aa]appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and humility and severe treatment of the body BUT ARE OF NO VALUE against fleshly indulgence.

Taking or not taking vaccines have no value against fleshly indulgence. When a person truly focused on waging war against fleshly indulgence, he will not waste his time on such conspiracy theories.


_________________
Sreeram

 2021/1/19 16:00Profile
drifter
Member



Joined: 2005/6/6
Posts: 747
Campbell River, B.C.

 Re:

I recommend everyone read (and possibly sign) the Great Barrington Declaration. It was authored by Dr. Martin Kulldorff, professor of medicine at Harvard University, Dr. Sunetra Gupta, professor at Oxford University, and Dr. Jay Bhattacharya, professor at Stanford University Medical School. It is co-signed by 13,290 medical and public health scientists, as well as 40,199 medical practitioners.

Here is an excerpt:

"As immunity builds in the population, the risk of infection to all – including the vulnerable – falls. We know that all populations will eventually reach herd immunity – i.e. the point at which the rate of new infections is stable – and that this can be assisted by (but is not dependent upon) a vaccine."


_________________
Nigel Holland

 2021/1/19 16:18Profile
drifter
Member



Joined: 2005/6/6
Posts: 747
Campbell River, B.C.

 Re:

Sree, I agree with you. I try not to take an extreme position one way or the other. However, calling anyone who questions the official party line about Covid a "conspiracy theorist" is unfair. I just recently heard a newscast (MSNBC if I remember correctly) calling Covid "the worst virus in human history". This is blatantly false fear mongering. If you look at the evidence, it is overwhelming that ungodly people are using this virus as a scapegoat to push through evil political agendas.

On a side note, back in early February of last year I got sick (shortness of breath, flu like symptoms etc.) after one of my co workers had just come back from Los Angeles; he was sick as well. I learned later that there had been confirmed Covid cases in Los Angeles around that time. I can't be sure of this, but I would bet my next paycheck I contracted Covid then. So my town (around 35,000 people) may have already been exposed before any lockdown measures or mask mandates were in place. What happened? Were people dropping dead in the streets (a la Chinese Communist Party propaganda)? No! This isn't the bubonic plague. It's a particularly nasty strain of the flu.


_________________
Nigel Holland

 2021/1/19 16:52Profile





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