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makrothumia
Member



Joined: 2005/5/19
Posts: 688
Texas

 Re: Noble but misguided

While I can understand the desire to see God's mercy and forgiveness in the way you see it Jade, I sincerely believe your efforts are misguided and unfounded.

You have alleged that God does not destroy wicked "men", but the wickedness IN men so that they may ultimately be saved. You believe that His wrath is poured out upon their works, not for their destruction but for their salvation.

Paul warned believers about this very matter.

Ephesians 5
For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them

Notice that God's wrath does not come upon the sins, but upon "the sons" of disobedience.

Furthermore in II Thessalonians 1, Paul wrote that the wrath of God comes upon men, not simply their sins

since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power

The grammar is clear, that vengeance is upon "those" (men) who do not know God. They (these men who do not know God) will be punished with everlasting destruction.

You are in danger of turning destruction into salvation so that you can work out every man being saved. This is a serious twisting of scripture and Paul warns that when men do this, they do so to their own harm.

If you twist the meaning of everlasting destruction into a means through which men are ultimately saved, then what
can everlasting salvation mean?

Your motive may be good and sincere, but your method is spurious and dangerous.

mak




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Alan and Dina Martin

 2020/6/22 10:51Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5502
NC, USA

 Re:

Hey Mak- just wanted to check on how you define “destruction.”

TK


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Todd

 2020/6/22 11:40Profile
BranchinVINE
Member



Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 702
Australia

 Re: Mak



Quote:
You have alleged that God does not destroy wicked "men", but the wickedness IN men so that they may ultimately be saved



Have I??


Quote:
You are in danger of turning destruction into salvation so that you can work out every man being saved. This is a serious twisting of scripture and Paul warns that when men do this, they do so to their own harm.

If you twist the meaning of everlasting destruction into a means through which men are ultimately saved, then what
can everlasting salvation mean?



I don’t know what you are talking about.


Quote:
While I can understand the desire to see God's mercy and forgiveness in the way you see it Jade, I sincerely believe your efforts are misguided and unfounded……Your motive may be good and sincere, but your method is spurious and dangerous.



We will all stand before the judgment seat of God and each one of us will give an account of himself to God.



_________________
Jade

 2020/6/22 12:01Profile
BranchinVINE
Member



Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 702
Australia

 Re: Mak

Quote:
The Second Death occurs after the resurrection of the dead - Revelation 20:12-14………… In the first passage in Revelation 21, the restoration of all things appears to have taken place. The New Heaven is present, the New Jerusalem is present, and in contrast with this - the distinction between those cast into the lake of fire and those who are present in the New Heaven is set forth………… In your understanding of how all things have been fully reconciled and every work of the devil destroyed. How do you understand the presence of the separation in the introduction of the New Heaven and the New Jerusalem.





I don’t think we can really understand eternity while still living in time. So, speaking in time and in human terms --

The works of the devil have already been destroyed at the cross (Col. 2:15 -principalities and powers disarmed; Rom. 6:6, Gal. 2:20 – fallen old man crucified; Gal. 6:14 – world crucified.)

All authority has been given to the Lord Jesus in heaven and on earth (Matt. 28:18).

It is time to bring in the harvest.

John 4:35 –
Behold, I say to you, lift up your eyes and look on the fields, that they are white for harvest.

The first fruits (the church) are being gathered in this present age.

Time ends and eternity begins. (Yet time and eternity co-exist even now!).

The resurrection of the dead takes place (Rev. 20:12-15).

If anyone’s name is not written in the book of life (comment: belonging to Christ), he is thrown into the lake of fire, the second death.

Comment:
How great a number this must be! They include all who have not heard the gospel throughout time.

New Jerusalem has been made ready as a bride adorned for her husband, having the glory of God (Rev. 21:2,11).

Then,

A loud voice from the throne says:
"Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, AND HE WILL WIPE AWAY EVERY TEAR FROM THEIR EYES; AND THERE WILL NO LONGER BE ANY DEATH; THERE WILL NO LONGER BE ANY MOURNING, OR CRYING, OR PAIN; the first things have passed away." – Rev. 21:3-4

Comment:
Who are the ones who will be mourning, crying and in pain? Surely not New Jerusalem. They can only be the vast number in the lake of fire, the second death.
Note: “AND THERE WILL NO LONGER BE ANY DEATH”
1 Cor. 15:26 – The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

And He who sits on the throne said:
"Behold, I am making all things new." And He said, "Write, for these words are faithful and true" (Rev. 21:5).

Comment:
The new heaven and new earth and New Jerusalem have all come into being. What else is not yet made new? The countless number of people in the lake of fire who are still of the old creation in Adam.

Rev. 21:6-7 –
Then He said to me, "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.”

Comment:
Surely this is the “second chance” for those in the lake of fire! Actually it is just the first chance for the billions who had never heard the gospel before.

Rev. 21:8 –
"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

Comment:
Yes. There is still free choice. Will anyone in the terrible lake of fire reject the offer of the water of life and not repent and eagerly run back to the splendour of the Father’s house like the prodigal son?

Scripture answers:

Isa. 66:23 –
And it shall be from new moon to new moon
And from sabbath to sabbath,
ALL MANKIND WILL COME TO BOW DOWN BEFORE ME,” says the LORD.



The Lord said to Abraham: “………I will bless you …… And you shall be a blessing …… And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed“(Gen. 12:2,3).

So must the church, the New Jerusalem, be (re: Gen. 22:18, Gal. 3:16, Gal. 3:29).
And, so she will be. And so you must be

Rev. 21:23-24 –
And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb. The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.

Rev. 22:1-2 –
Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; AND THE LEAVES OF THE TREE WERE FOR THE HEALING OF THE NATIONS.



Scripture says:
“But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more” (Rom. 5:20).

The Lord says: “For I, the LORD, do not change” (Mal. 3:6).

Lam. 3:21-23 –
This I recall to my mind,
Therefore I have hope.
The LORD'S lovingkindnesses indeed never cease,
For His compassions never fail.
They are new every morning;
Great is Your faithfulness.

v. 31-33 –
For the Lord will not reject forever,
For if He causes grief,
Then He will have compassion
According to His abundant lovingkindness.
For He does not afflict willingly
Or grieve the sons of men.



God’s last words in the Bible are words of grace, words of kindness, words of comfort, words of love:

Rev. 22:17 –
And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!”
And let him who hears say, “Come!”
And let him who thirsts come.
Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.

v.21 –
The grace of the Lord Jesus be with ALL. Amen.


To God our Father and our Lord Jesus Christ be the glory and the dominion forever!


_________________
Jade

 2020/6/22 12:03Profile
makrothumia
Member



Joined: 2005/5/19
Posts: 688
Texas

 Re:

Hi Todd,

The word Paul uses in II Thessalonians is

ólethros (from ollymi/"destroy") – properly, ruination with its full, destructive results (LS). 3639 /ólethros ("ruination") however does not imply "extinction" (annihilation). Rather it emphasizes the consequent loss that goes with the complete "undoing."

This definition is copied from Bible Hub, a site that is a good source for such questions.

Mak


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Alan and Dina Martin

 2020/6/22 12:31Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5502
NC, USA

 Re:

Thx Mak.

Is this part:// “ólethros ("ruination") however does not imply "extinction" (annihilation). Rather it emphasizes the consequent loss that goes with the complete "undoing”// someone’s interpretation or is that an absolute fact regarding the Greek word? The reason I ask is that I have read or heard somewhere that this word can mean either ruination or total annihilation. I am not a Greek expert.


_________________
Todd

 2020/6/22 14:08Profile
makrothumia
Member



Joined: 2005/5/19
Posts: 688
Texas

 Re:

Todd,

Bible Hub is a free website with an excellent Greek and Hebrew content.

There is an interlinear section where the strong number is posted above the Greek word, which is posted above the English word.

By clicking on the Strong number, you are given definitions taken from scholars, along with verses that the word also appears in.

I have found it a very helpful resource when attempting to ascertain the basic meaning.

I am not a Greek expert either, but I am grateful for the many men who devoted their lives to provide us detailed information that we may not otherwise have access to. I have been fortunate to make good use of many of these resources for a number of years, and I am so grateful for the help they have been to me.


mak


_________________
Alan and Dina Martin

 2020/6/22 19:02Profile
makrothumia
Member



Joined: 2005/5/19
Posts: 688
Texas

 Re:

Jade, thank you for your candid acknowledgment

The only rational, logical conclusion to your position is that those who have been cast into the lake of fire will receive another opportunity to be saved.

At least your view has come into the light to be examined.

Please consider the ramifications of this position. This removes salvation by grace through faith.

This removes any eternal consequence for unbelief.

This removes the truth of eternal punishment.

This proposes a doctrine similar to purgatory - that suffering the lake of fire after death is really only for the purpose of temporal punishment leading to the ultimate salvation of the soul.

I do not hesitate to call this heretical - a teaching that has arisen out of your own personal choice.

mak


_________________
Alan and Dina Martin

 2020/6/23 10:01Profile
BranchinVINE
Member



Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 702
Australia

 Re:


Mak,


Quote:
The only rational, logical conclusion to your position is that those who have been cast into the lake of fire will receive another opportunity to be saved.

At least your view has come into the light to be examined.

Please consider the ramifications of this position. This removes salvation by grace through faith.

This removes any eternal consequence for unbelief.



Salvation out of the lake of fire by grace through faith STANDS now and forever.

Your position is that grace through faith is withdrawn after this present age.

I am challenging that position.


Quote:
This removes the truth of eternal punishment.



If you mean the truth of “eternal torment”, that is challenged.


Quote:
This proposes a doctrine similar to purgatory - that suffering the lake of fire after death is really only for the purpose of temporal punishment leading to the ultimate salvation of the soul.



I am not interested in the doctrine of purgatory, whatever it is.

The suffering in the lake of fire is the terrible FACT of separation from God.

The difference between us is that I believe in the greatness of God’s love and compassion and will and power to save all men, but you don’t


Quote:
I do not hesitate to call this heretical - a teaching that has arisen out of your own personal choice.



Heretics, of course, are those who disagree with you. And of course, only your own theology is truth.

This discussion is no longer profitable as it has degenerated into personal attacks.

Blessings


_________________
Jade

 2020/6/23 11:39Profile
makrothumia
Member



Joined: 2005/5/19
Posts: 688
Texas

 Re:

Dear Jade,

This statement is disingenuous at best: you wrote

Heretics, of course, are those who disagree with you. And of course, only your own theology is truth.

I am certain that you are already very aware that your interpretation is unique, although that in itself does not make it wrong. You show confidence, which I admire to put forth your views on this forum; in fact, you voluntarily joined this thread and interjected your own thoughts.

Please do not take offense at the term "heretical". The basic meaning of heresy is "to choose". I do not hesitate to call the teaching that there is a second opportunity to be saved by grace through faith after being thrown into the lake of fire - "heretical." - Heresy means a "choice", and you have made the choice to interpret certain passages according to your personal understanding and assimilate them together.

It is already well understood, by yourself and others, that thousands of men and women of God, over hundreds of years, have studied the same passages you quote and interpreted them differently. Certainly this fact has not escaped you. That is why I admire your confidence to share openly. I am certainly not the first to have called this teaching heretical, many men and women more qualified than I would not hesitate to do so still.

This is a public forum, where discussion may lead to disagreement. You are free to believe what you wrote - "The difference between us is that I believe in the greatness of God’s love and compassion and will and power to save all men, but you don’t"

But the open minded reader who has followed this thread can look back and see that what originally moved me to post was the glimpse into God's heart to spare and to show mercy.

As you have said, we will all stand before the Lord to give account for ourselves, nothing is hidden from the eyes of Him to whom we must give account. Like Paul, I can say that I am not aware of anything against myself, but that does not make me innocent, it is the Lord who judges me. But knowing that He is the judge with the ability and authority to judge righteously, it matters very little to me to be criticized by lesser authority. The support of friends does not prove one right, and the opposition of anyone contrary does not prove one wrong.

I thank you for the opportunity to discuss these topics on the forum. I will leave you to the compassion and mercy of God, but I do so aware of His own warning about adding to or taking away from what He has spoken.

If you are correct, I have nothing to fear anyway.

mak


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Alan and Dina Martin

 2020/6/23 18:55Profile





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