SermonIndex Audio Sermons
SermonIndex - Promoting Revival to this Generation
Give To SermonIndex
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : What about those who do not know?

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 Next Page )
PosterThread
makrothumia
Member



Joined: 2005/5/19
Posts: 724
Texas

 Re:

Robert,

Please study the two uses of “epiginosko” in II Peter chapter 1 and chapter 2. The first is clearly used of “the elect”. Please explain in your own words, why we should not understand it as the very same type of knowledge in chapter 2

Mak


_________________
Alan and Dina Martin

 2020/5/24 10:18Profile
CofG
Member



Joined: 2017/2/12
Posts: 964
Cambodia

 Re:

Thanks Mak. I’ll look those up and try to respond. What do you think the Ephesians passage means?


_________________
Robert

 2020/5/24 10:24Profile
makrothumia
Member



Joined: 2005/5/19
Posts: 724
Texas

 Re:

The Ephesians passage is Paul’s prayer for every Christian to receive the imparted ability from the Holy Spirit for a spiritual establishing through the indwelling of Christ. To enable believers to fully grasp the personal knowledge of the love of God in a way that would propel them to the fullest experience of the life of Christ.

This same word “gnosko” that Paul uses the intensified form “epiginosko” in I Timothy that God desires “all men to COME to the full-knowledge of the truth.

In your study please include Paul’s different meanings for this word to offer support to your ideas about different types of knowledge.

Mak


_________________
Alan and Dina Martin

 2020/5/24 13:33Profile
CofG
Member



Joined: 2017/2/12
Posts: 964
Cambodia

 Re:

Mak,

So God must impart this “knowing” was my point. He must do something in the heart that gives an experience of the love of Jesus. Knowing in an intimate personal sense seems to require a gift from Him in power. This isn’t just agreeing with a kind of information knowing. Even the devils know in this sense and James says informational knowledge is not faith. This concept of spiritual understanding that comes from a God given spirit of revelation and God given wisdom isn’t Gnosticism and I’m truly regretful if you might think it is because the Scripture speaks abundantly and often of the Spirit revealing, teaching and, most importantly, making Jesus “real” in the heart.


_________________
Robert

 2020/5/24 14:58Profile
makrothumia
Member



Joined: 2005/5/19
Posts: 724
Texas

 Re:

Robert, please know that I have understood your point that God must impart the knowing, but please attempt to address my sincere questions about your point.

Are you asking me to just take your point by faith and not test it with the scriptures. Please explain why Peter and Paul both use the same word "gnosko" and "epignosko" for the elect and the non-elect.

My point is that there is no such word for this "God born knowledge" in the scriptures. I can see where you infer it. That I accept as sincere on your part and reasonable.

But even in Romans 10, Paul uses "gnosko" for Israel when he made the statement - "did Israel not KNOW".

Peter uses the very same form of the word "epignvosko" for being equipped with everything necessary for life and godliness through the "epignosko" of the One having called us. Here you would say this is the God-given knowledge. Am I correct? This is only logically consistent with what you are saying.

Then in chapter 2, he writes it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN -"epignosko" in the Greek Perfect active indicative to describe someone who you would say is "NOT" the elect.

Please explain in your own words this descrepancy. Also, please know that I am not saying that your advocating a God born knowledge is Gnosticism. We all depend upon the grace of revelation to know Him. My point is that you are inferring that God is not offering this "knowledge" to everyone. That is the gnostic element I am getting at.

mak


_________________
Alan and Dina Martin

 2020/5/24 16:30Profile
CofG
Member



Joined: 2017/2/12
Posts: 964
Cambodia

 Re:


_________________
Robert

 2020/5/24 16:56Profile
CofG
Member



Joined: 2017/2/12
Posts: 964
Cambodia

 Re:

Hi Mak, Without any false humility, my words or opinions matter not. Here are some verses that underscore what I was trying to say.


that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, - Ephesians 1:17

And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. - Matthew 16:17

Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see (one common usage of perceive) the kingdom of God." - John 3:3.

But they understood none of these things. This saying was hidden from them, and they did not grasp what was said. - Luke 18:34

One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul. - Acts 16:14

And so, from the day we heard, we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding,
so as to walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him: bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; - Colossians 1:9-10


_________________
Robert

 2020/5/24 16:56Profile
makrothumia
Member



Joined: 2005/5/19
Posts: 724
Texas

 Re:

Robert, I am very aware of every scripture you have quoted and many more supporting what you are saying.

There are scriptures that need to be reconciled with these scriptures you are not addressing. Is there a reason for that.

I acknowledge that many passages speak of God giving the spirit of wisdom and revelation, shining the light of the knowledge of the glory of God, etc.

There are many other passages that speak clearly of men "refusing this knowledge that God was actively seeking to impart to them. The passages that I have asked you to speak to are just the beginning.

If you do not want to make any attempt to speak directly to them, then I will accept it and let it go, but you have not even attempted to address my sincere objection to your premise that God never attempted to give them the special revelatory saving knowledge.

mak


_________________
Alan and Dina Martin

 2020/5/24 17:41Profile
makrothumia
Member



Joined: 2005/5/19
Posts: 724
Texas

 Re:

Perhaps these questions will help you understand my objections to your premise that God does not offer saving knowledge of Himself to any but the elect.

So when God describes Israel as "unhearing" and "refusing to receive correction." What knowledge is He seeking to give them? He just wants to improve their earthly state before they are condemned forever?

What was God seeking to do? What purpose did He have in attempting to turn them back to Himself (while still withholding the special revelatory saving knowledge).

Can you address what kind of mercy God was offering them? What was He attempting to accomplish in their hearts?
Does God raise up a prophet and speak to people for over 23 years even though He has never intended to give them the "saving knowledge" because they are not His elect.

Please explain this.

mak


_________________
Alan and Dina Martin

 2020/5/24 17:52Profile
CofG
Member



Joined: 2017/2/12
Posts: 964
Cambodia

 Re:

Hi Mak. I never have doubted that God on one level reaches out with general revelation to all or even a face to face revelation with some and that men have in evil refused of their own sin to see. We agree.

The problem is “ now what”. The answer is here:

But to this day the LORD has not given you a heart to understand or eyes to see or ears to hear. - Deuteronomy 29:4

These Israelites had literally “seen” it all and yet.....

You said you are aware of all these Scriptures I have set forth but you have not given them their plain meaning. Reconciliation with your Scriptures isn’t required if you and I already agree that
God reaches out and man, in his sinful heart, refuses. We are in total agreement. I with all respect think that you have not
Told me what all these passages I have quoted mean. I feel like you just tell me what they can’t mean.


_________________
Robert

 2020/5/24 17:54Profile





©2002-2024 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Revival to this Generation.
Privacy Policy