SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : What about those who do not know?

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 Next Page )
PosterThread
makrothumia
Member



Joined: 2005/5/19
Posts: 668
Texas

 Re:

Agreed Robert,

If you have access to it, This resource has done a great deal of work to explain, with biblical and historical documentation, the usage and nuances of both words.

The writers have provided the passages each word is used along with their studies and reasons for how the meaning should be understood in its context.

Theological dictionary of the New Testament Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans.

If you do not have access, I have the entire series in digitally linked searchable format. I would be happy to copy and paste entire sections and email them to you so that you can study them at your own convenience.

mak

added: Robert you wrote: "It seems though that
in this obvious and pervasive case that will and desire are two entirely different things on its face. You could not say God does not will the death of the wicked."

If you or I could not say that God does not will the death of the wicked...what confidence can you have in scripture when the writer DOES SAY EXACTLY THAT! We can question what is meant by the statement - but if we believe that what is written is "god-breathed" then we CAN SAY IT!


_________________
Alan and Dina Martin

 2020/5/21 8:14Profile
makrothumia
Member



Joined: 2005/5/19
Posts: 668
Texas

 Re:

Here is one verse that directly addresses your desire.

Ezekiel 33:11
εἰπὸν αὐτοῖς Ζῶ ἐγώ, τάδε λέγει κύριος Οὐ βούλομαι τὸν θάνατον τοῦ ἀσεβοῦς ὡς τὸ ἀποστρέψαι τὸν ἀσεβῆ ἀπὸ τῆς ὁδοῦ αὐτοῦ καὶ ζῆν αὐτόν. ἀποστροφῇ ἀποστρέψατε ἀπὸ τῆς ὁδοῦ ὑμῶν, καὶ ἵνα τί ἀποθνῄσκετε, οἶκος Ισραηλ

"Speak to them, as I live, thus says the Lord, I do not purpose the death of the ungodly (Christ died for the ungodly) so as the ungodly to turn from his way and him to live; also in order that you do not die house of Israel"

βούλομαι - here is a present "Middle" indicative verb, the nuance of the middle voice here reflects the action of the verb back to the subject in a unique way. God does not either for Himself or by himself purpose, plan, the death of the wicked.

mak


_________________
Alan and Dina Martin

 2020/5/21 8:36Profile
CofG
Member



Joined: 2017/2/12
Posts: 487
Cambodia

 Re:

Hi Mak,

When Paul describes the conversion of the Gentiles in 2 Cor4:6, he, by the Spirit says, and I'm paraphrasing, they repented and believed when God shone the light of the glory of Himself in Christ into their hearts. Thus, spiritual vision is the key to repentance. Vision of God's glory.

In the case of those who hear the Gospel or even those who saw Jesus in the flesh when He was on earth, they had physical vision of God's glory in Jesus and His deeds but lacked spiritual vision because of their hardened hearts caused by their own sin. They could see God's glory but they couldn't spiritually see.

I think the prime example is the thief on the cross who in one moment was mocking Jesus because of what he saw with his physical eyes and suddenly in an instant he "saw" Jesus with his heart as Lord and Savior.

Like, Job, or Isaiah, or John the apostle, there's a seeing God through human perception and knowledge and then there is a spiritual seeing that undoes a man and moves him to repent and fall on his face.

All men can plainly see the glory of God in creation in a physical human knowledge sense but only some see His glory in the heart and repent and give Him thanks and glory. Some men are given a clearer picture of His glory in the face of Jesus through the preaching of Jesus and can know about him with the physical mind. Yet, Paul makes clear this isn't enough. God must shine light spiritually into the heart so they can truly see the glory of God in Jesus.
Then, they are moved to repentance and faith in Him as God's true Son.

It's spiritual sight that is missing for men to see the glory of God whether they've heard the gospel or not.

So, once again, it comes down to this...... does God shine His spiritual light and vision of His glory into every man's heart? Can God be faulted if He shows men His glory physically to their own minds either in nature, the conscience in the law, or even a physical encounter with Jesus and His power and loving deeds? No.

All men have a witness of God.

The key is does God shine a "brighter" light to all. Paul would say no. He said, we were converted when God shone this spiritual vision into our hearts. When spiritual sight is given, men see God's glory. There were two thieves on crosses mocking Jesus. They both saw the same bloody mess. One was instantly given heart vision, spiritual light, and in a miracle that the other did not receive, both equally guilty of similar sin, even though they were both mere feet away from Jesus having the cross preach to them both about Jesus , and one didn't see the glory, and one did.

The fundamental question for what happens to all mankind who have minds to know the glory of God in everything is, has God shone into their hearts with spiritual vision and not just into their minds with natural information which they suppress because of their sinful hard hearts. I have concluded from Scripture that all men have knowledge of God's glory, only some are given spiritual understanding to see the glory, moving them, like many saints in the OT and NT, to repentance and faith.

What happens to those who don't know is the wrong question. All know the glory in some measure. The question is...... Since all know, how does one get a better spiritual vision that a hardened heart refuses to see ?

ADD: If all men received spiritual sight of the glory of God, then here would be the testimony of billions:

" I am an atheist, a Buddhist, a Muslim, a Hindu, etc. Then one day, God gave me a clear understanding that He is truly God or that Jesus is truly His Son. It was nice, but I'm going to continue the way I was. I was amazed at His glory, I saw His beauty and love, I was afraid of His holiness that I saw, but I'm perfectly content with the lies I was choosing to believe instead."

Haven't heard that testimony and I've been all over the world sharing Jesus. Maybe others have.


_________________
Robert

 2020/5/22 6:37Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5483
NC, USA

 Re:

Robert-

If the Pharisees in Jesus’ day were honest that is exactly what they would say.

ADD: it seems you are reading way yonder more into 2 Cor.4:6 than is warranted.


_________________
Todd

 2020/5/22 8:16Profile
CofG
Member



Joined: 2017/2/12
Posts: 487
Cambodia

 Re:

Thanks Todd, I think the Bible says it is much more than that. There is a hardening by God that has occurred because of sin. A stubborn, evil and rebellious heart is involved. A heart that hates what God loves and loves what God hates is involved. A soul that hates God is involved. A sinful nature is involved.

Dishonesty and a suppression of the truth, a belief in lies, is just the soul's way of giving sway to evil desires and intention and the soul is trying to push the guilt down in their conscience so they can keep right on doing what they love. I know you know all that.


_________________
Robert

 2020/5/22 8:27Profile
CofG
Member



Joined: 2017/2/12
Posts: 487
Cambodia

 Re:

Todd, do you think the thief on the cross who didn’t turn to Jesus actually saw Jesus as King of Heaven and able to deliver him to paradise but, as he’s dying, decided to be dishonest about it?


_________________
Robert

 2020/5/22 9:18Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5483
NC, USA

 Re:

No- but I think the Pharisees certainly did.

It is possible the rich young ruler did as well, but I like to think he eventually came around.


_________________
Todd

 2020/5/22 11:45Profile
CofG
Member



Joined: 2017/2/12
Posts: 487
Cambodia

 Re:

Why do you think "certainly". I'm not trying to use Scripture to play "I gotcha". Maybe this will change your mind. This Scripture just came to mind when I read your post that clearly states that they did not understand as you suspected:

Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away.
But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. - 1 Corinthians 2:6-7

None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
But, as it is written, "What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him"- - 1 Corinthians 2:8-9




_________________
Robert

 2020/5/22 11:56Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5483
NC, USA

 Re:

He said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him. Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, that those who do not see may see, and those who see may become blind.” Some of the Pharisees near him heard these things, and said to him, “Are we also blind?” Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no guilt; but now that you say, ‘We see,’ your guilt remains.
John 9:38-41


_________________
Todd

 2020/5/22 14:10Profile
CofG
Member



Joined: 2017/2/12
Posts: 487
Cambodia

 Re:

Thanks Todd. I have always thought that the passage you quoted pointed to the pride of the Pharisees in their own wisdom and was not actually proof they understood. Here is a second verse speaking to the Pharisees and other Jews of their “ignorance and blindness” or lack of understanding because of judicial hardening:

And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables.
And he said to them, "To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables,
so that "'they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.'" - Mark 4:10-12

Understanding, spiritual sight and wisdom, is a gift.

And he answered them, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.
For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. - Matthew 13:11-12


Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, - Luke 24:45


_________________
Robert

 2020/5/22 15:03Profile





©2002-2020 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Affiliate Disclosure | Privacy Policy