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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : What about those who do not know?

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makrothumia
Member



Joined: 2005/5/19
Posts: 668
Texas

 Re:

Thank you Jade for sharing your heart and understanding. I did deduce from your earlier post that you leaned towards or were open to the universal aspect of the atonement. I am also aware that you have likely discussed this with others who sought to persuade you otherwise.

I acknowledge that our Lord made atonement for the sins of the whole world, and that similar language is used to describe God reconciling the whole world to Himself. I trust these passages and the ones you have quoted form the basis of your understanding.

There are two passages for me that reconcile universal atonement and individual choice to receive the sacrifice by faith.

The first is in Romans 3 where Paul wrote - for all have sinned
and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. 25God presented Him as the atoning sacrificei through faith in His blood,

There is no doubt that all were justified freely by His blood - but there is a very distinct qualifier that Paul was inspired to add - “whom God set forth as a propitiation THROUGH FAITH IN HIS BLOOD!

Sadly, not all men have faith. The atonement has been made for their sin and their justification freely awaits them - THROUGH FAITH! The atonement must be received by faith to be enjoyed.

The second passage that agrees with this is none other than John 3:16.
Careful study of this passage in context will reveal that it is in the very same way that Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness that our Lord’s death will save those who believe. For it was not the placing the serpent in the pole that automatically healed the people. The instructions given to Moses is that everyone who is bitten and LOOKS UPON the serpent on the pole will live.

Our Lord’s death is there for everyone. He was lifted up that all men would be drawn to Him. Those who look to Him in faith will live.

Although the motive or hope is to make God’s mercy universal unconditionally based upon the death of our Lord; nevertheless, taking away the condition of faith is to take away from the words of the book and there are grave consequences for any who do so. God set forth Jesus as a propitiation THROUGH FAITH in His blood. Faith is the condition God Himself set.

Please prayerfully consider this.

Mak


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Alan and Dina Martin

 2020/5/19 11:29Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5483
NC, USA

 Re:

Mak-

Amen to your post of 2020/5/19 9:47.


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Todd

 2020/5/19 11:41Profile
BranchinVINE
Member



Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 689
Australia

 Re:


Mak,

Certainly. Faith is a vital necessity of Christian salvation and life in Christ. And, “we all……beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit”.

Question is: Is God able to bring all men to repentance and have faith in Christ?

He most certainly can.

God is mighty to save.

With people it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God.

It is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure (Phil. 2:13).

Rom. 11:33-36 –
Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!
For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR?
Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN?
For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things.
To Him be the glory forever.
Amen.


Will He?

It is God’s will for all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim. 2:4).


_________________
Jade

 2020/5/20 10:00Profile
CofG
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Joined: 2017/2/12
Posts: 487
Cambodia

 Re:

Jade,and Mak

Perhaps you could help me understand the difference or the sameness when God says it is His desire that all men be saved and His will that all men be saved.

For example, if God wills, desires and commands all men love Him with all their hearts does He take every action that is necessary and sufficient to make sure they do?

Some Scripture and even translation on that would be helpful.

I have seen in many comments the notion that if God desires something for every man, then He "must" supply every man what is necessary or sufficient to make His desire a reality. While that notion may seem implied, it really isn't an implication. God can desire every man everywhere never sin but He hasn't give every man everywhere His Holy Spirit nor has He glorified them where they could be sinless. So, while God may desire something He doesn't by necessity have to supply the means to accomplish His desire.

Mak, I think you and I have gone back and forth on this issue before but given Jade's perspective, I think it is worthwhile to set forth explicitly how God's "desire" for something to happen means that He does what is necessary and sufficient to make it happen. Especially given the topic specifically addressed in this post about those who do not hear.

And I want to interject the story I know you both know where Jesus chastens Chorazin for not repenting after the miracles they had seen and He says that Sodom would have repented if those miracles had been done in their midst which of course they weren't. Given God's desire that all men be saved, at some point prior to final hardening and destruction wouldn't God by your positions have done those miracles in Sodom


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Robert

 2020/5/20 10:27Profile
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5483
NC, USA

 Re:

It may depend on how important the desire is.

A new mother desires that her child take nourishment. We would think a mother monstrous who desires that her child eat, but who refuses to feed him when she has the power to do so.

In God’s case it is a tad trickier because everything is in His power.

If we say God desires all men to come to Him *on their own*, it sounds better but seems contrary to certain scriptures.


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Todd

 2020/5/20 10:51Profile
CofG
Member



Joined: 2017/2/12
Posts: 487
Cambodia

 Re:

My question really is.....when God in Scripture expresses desire for something to happen does He as a rule give all sufficient means to those whom He desires something from. Todd I think you have rightly noted that not all hear and yet God desires all be saved. You are left with an inherent problem with reasoning that says God’s desire equals God’s provision.

From the Bible I tried to show that God desires all to repent but then He doesn’t provide the miracles which Jesus declares would’ve worked to cause Sodom to repent. To me, this one example puts a whole in the argument that if God desires something from men or for men, then He will
logically, automatically and consistent with His character provide all men the sufficient means to receive or attain what He genuinely desires.


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Robert

 2020/5/20 12:01Profile
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5483
NC, USA

 Re:

//You are left with an inherent problem with reasoning that says God’s desire equals God’s provision. //

Actually I did not say that.

What I said or implied is that a human who desires something good for a loved one does not HAVE to help even if they are able. However, a human who refuses to help a loved one in a vital matter, or a life and death matter, when it is in their power to do so, would require that we conclude one of three things: 1) the person does not REALLY love the other person, 2) The person really doesn’t desire to help, or 3) the person is insane or evil.


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Todd

 2020/5/20 12:37Profile
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Joined: 2017/2/12
Posts: 487
Cambodia

 Re:

What do you conclude then about God from the Chorazin example?


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Robert

 2020/5/20 12:49Profile
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5483
NC, USA

 Re:

//What do you conclude then about God from the Chorazin example?//

That Jesus is using a rhetorical device.


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Todd

 2020/5/20 14:39Profile
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Joined: 2017/2/12
Posts: 487
Cambodia

 Re:

By logic, then, His curse of increased punishment on Chorazin relative to Sodom is a rhetorical curse?


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Robert

 2020/5/20 14:44Profile





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