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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : God and the accuser wager over Job's life

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CofG
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Joined: 2017/2/12
Posts: 500
Cambodia

 Re:

Hi Marvin. I concur wholeheartedly with your explanation with one exception. God did “design” the crucifixion of his Son if by “design” you mean the particulars of it. For example, God kept them from breaking his legs. He ordained that he would receive stripes . He kept Jesus from being stoned during His ministry so that He could reach Jerusalem to be crucified instead. The actions of men according to Scripture do not fulfill the foreknowledge of God’s seeing of the future as a prediction but rather the actions of men fulfill the Scriptures. Jesus said “these things must happen to fulfill the Scriptures”.


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Robert

 2020/1/22 18:43Profile
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Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 1445
Dothan, Alabama

 Re: brother Marvin

Thank you for helping to inform the position being put forth- and it does help to further the point, as illustrated by brother Roberts agreement with your exposition of his earlier point.
I am indeed seeking to understand and if you might indulge my ignorance a bit further, it may prove helpful to this end 🙏🏻

You wrote eat the opening ;
“When it is said God controls all that occurs on the earth.
What we don't mean
1. God's works are indistinguishable from Satan's
2. God tempts man to sin in that God is conspirator with a man to sin.
3. Mans sinning is equivalent to doing the will of God, especially if God ordained the occurrence.“

You also wrote at the end;
“ The right men, in the right place in the right time, all orchestrated and situated...as a stream of water curves from a hard bank or cuts through a soft bank or rages down a steep drop...cannot deviate from its course on it's own. It is subject to everything around it, that 'everything' was planned and designed of God even as the water itself was purposed to run through it.”

It seems that my understanding fails to find continuity between these two positions, as the first seems to disavow what the second allows even expects, with both somehow not expressing an inherent contradiction...
this is not an accusation of fraud or an indictment of malfeasance, simply put this doesn’t make sense to me,... might you help to clarify?

There (for me) seems to be a presumption and then a “filling in” after the fact by things that wouldn’t stand up to a proper inquiry-

For example;
I’m unaware of anyone who disputes Gods sovereignty, foreknowledge, prophecy etc... regarding His plan which certainly includes the passage you cite
/ Isaiah 53:10

Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

"Yet it was the will of the Lord".

The cruel romans whipping him...
The cowardly Pilates shiftiness...
The roman guards blindfolded and slapping him
The Pharisees calling for his crucifixion
The crowd yelling 'crucify him'
Judas Iscariot selling him out for 30 pieces of silver /

Yet again this pertains exclusively to His plan and in no way extends beyond it (that I’ve found in scripture) except to say that there are certain hyperbolic or poetic passages, that if taken literally, “could” be made to fit this order but to do so would render them wholly invalid as being literal-
For example; “ 3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.”
Now what this is saying is certainly true, but what’s being said is not in a literal sense as no one, not even Jesus, came forth from their mothers womb speaking anything ever, much less lies-
So while if taken in context as it as presented, a writer waxing poetic to frame a spiritual truth in a sincere effort to point to the glory of God (by contrast) then this one simple passage is indeed pregnant with spiritual life, with light to help us find our way... tho if one attempts to take it literally, denying the fundamentals of biology and common sense then even the spiritual truth otherwise contained within is aborted and the parts used, not as intended, but to prop up mans vain attempts to prove himself wise...

So I’m asking for us to all agree and maintain the naturally occurring lines of demarcation between that which is clearly intended to be taken literally as a fact or a potential and that which is clearly metaphorical or hyperbolic with no hope of a legitimate literal application.

Again my only objective is to pursue the truth of Christ wherever it may lead regardless of how unpleasant I may find it-
Having said this, it would be dishonest of me not to disclaim that I do believe that very early on, the early church was infiltrated by Greek (pagan) philosophy and this is evidenced by the fundamental changes in perception or definition of who God is, what He does or doesn’t do, etc... which if removed from present tense Christianity it would quite literally tear it apart much like removing a hair from a biscuit.... it’s just not possible without making an unnecessary mess, which perhaps is why our Lord said wait till the harvest and the tares will be removed on the threshing floor -


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Fletcher

 2020/1/22 22:09Profile
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Joined: 2017/2/12
Posts: 500
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 Re:

Hi Fletcher.

Interpret this then

So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited. - 2 Corinthians 12:7

Who “gave” the thorn. Did Satan have a plan to make Paul humble or was it God?


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Robert

 2020/1/23 2:47Profile
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 Re: brother Robert

Good morning dear brother :)
My prayer is this finds you rejoicing in the day our Lord has made 🙏🏻
Thank you again for the opportunity to share my faith <\\\><

You asked; “ Hi Fletcher.

Interpret this then

So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited. - 2 Corinthians 12:7

Who “gave” the thorn. Did Satan have a plan to make Paul humble or was it God?

Answer - -
It is written; “ 20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good,”

And in another place the scriptures say;
“ And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.”

Wether satan has a “plan” or is just opportunistic, (for me) is irrelevant... what does matter tho is we have a great God, one whom can sympathize with our weakness and infirmities, one who knows us just as He desires to be known by us :)))) He says, He has a plan and I believe Him 🙏🏻



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Fletcher

 2020/1/23 8:51Profile
Gloryandgrace
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Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 1162
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:


Brother Robert:

you said: "The actions of men according to Scripture do not fulfill the foreknowledge of God’s seeing of the future as a prediction but rather the actions of men fulfill the Scriptures. Jesus said “these things must happen to fulfill the Scriptures"

Well, this will knock loose the cobwebs in the head.

Excellent insight.

I believe it's right to lean towards "to fulfill the scriptures" as the principle rather than lean towards mans actions. This is still a little sticky for me...but it's early and Im foggy headed this morning.

Thanks


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Marvin

 2020/1/23 10:00Profile
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Posts: 1162
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:


Hi Brother fletcher.

Articulating something complex in simple terms is sometimes difficult for me.

What appears to be a contradiction (I hope not) is probably due to my own shortcomings in how to explain.

Two things regarding God's sovereignty.

1 God is meticulous...he has the power to work on a great quantity of things simultaneously without error.
2. God is precise...he has the wisdom to orchestrate the vast array of human actions and words to bring about his own desired results.

When I apply those two things regarding God's sovereign rule over the affairs of men I see that even words spoken in haste, mockery, jokingly, threatening can and do bring about the plan of God.
I see even the worst and off-base occurrences guiding people and events toward grander purposes than the human being ever conceived.

These are God's anonymous workings. The behind the scenes God, unseen, unknown, unclaimed yet all belonging to him.

The reality for a man like me is the ability to apprehend the truth of God doing such things. Yet, I have scant ability to comprehend the meticulous precision of how God interworks in all the affairs of men.


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Marvin

 2020/1/23 10:17Profile
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Posts: 1445
Dothan, Alabama

 Re: brother Marvin

Thank you dear brother for your candor and willingness to help me better understand the position you view as the truth of Christ :)
You have always seemed earnest and well researched,... your diligence in searching out a matter is apparent and not in any way in question:)
You (as far as I’ve seen) have, even when we’ve disagreed, always attempted to be fair and considerate and it goes a long way when we conduct ourselves in such a way to represent what we claim to believe:)

Having said this;
May I ask you a sincere and simple question regarding these matters?


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Fletcher

 2020/1/23 14:27Profile
romanchog
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Joined: 2011/10/27
Posts: 332


 Re: Ginnyrose- has this thread answered your questions?

Hi.

I have read all the responses in here and am very interested in the discussion (though the topic seems to be changing).

I found something by John Piper that might be useful for my original question.

https://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/how-should-i-read-the-book-of-job

Natalie


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Natalie

 2020/1/23 18:32Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

Natalie, what' a romanchog?


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Phillip

 2020/1/24 7:06Profile
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Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 1445
Dothan, Alabama

 Re: brother Alec - Calvary Com

Thank you for sharing that link to the research on Job -

Wow! There were several points that had slipped through my filter and as such has given me some new opportunities to dig into :)))

While there were some aspects that might be a bit too speculative for my taste, they were clearly disclaimed and overall I found it to be not only resourceful but also a fun piece material to read and study.
I can honestly say that I hadn’t (on my own) considered Jobs’ ethnicity to be in question tho now... we’ll they made a substantive case for his potentially being a gentile and that would indeed be fascinating if it pans out.
There’s much to tackle and I’m sincerely looking forward to it, it honestly amazes me just how much more the word of God has to give... just when you think you’ve gotten all the meat off that bone, someone turns it over and whoa!!! There’s so much more 😇

Thanks again for sharing it 🙏🏻


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Fletcher

 2020/1/24 7:33Profile





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