Hi bro,

Here is what I believe my answer would be to Bother Hunt on his point number two.

Hunt
2) At the Rapture there is a resurrection of all believers who have died up to that time: “the dead shall be raised incorruptible” (1 Cor:15:52, 53); “the dead in Christ shall rise first...” (1 Thes:4:16).

Docs: I Corinthians 15:51-53 also mentions that this takes place at the LAST TRUMPET. Does Brother Hunt take this into consideration and why omit it?
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Paul says we all shall ALL (all in Christ)be changed at this last trumpet. Since no believer can be changed until the last trumpet sounds how can there be a last trumpet to occur at a pre-trib rapture of the church only to be followed seven years later by another last trumpet in regards to tribulation believers who either survived or lost their lives? Again, does last mean last as recorded in scripture under the direct inspiration of the Holy Spirit?

I Thess 4:16 - “...with the trumpet of God.” Which trumpet? The last trumpet or the next to last? Or are there two last trumpets?

Rev 11:15 regards the blowing of the seventh or last trumpet. It is at this time that it is proclaimed, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” I doubt this would be proclaimed during the fever heat of the tribulation when the AC still has sway and the saints are being trodden underfoot.

Plus, this last or seventh trumpet in Revelation speaks that the time has come that God “should reward His servants the prophets and the saints” (11:18). This is resurrection time, when rewards are given, and it comes at the sounding of the seventh and last trumpet. It is easy to coordinate it with I Cor 15:51-53 and I Thess 4:16. I Cor 15:51-53 and I Thess 4:16 and Matthew 24:31 are the time when rewards will be given. There is no other trumpet after Matthew 24:31 and it clearly comes after the tribulation of those days (24:29).

Matthew 24:31
I Cor 15:52
I Thess 4:16
Rev 11:15
All the same trumpet – the last trumpet.

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David Winter

Thanks for answering! I didn't realize you had started a new thread. Let me mull over your very legitimate concerns over the phrase "the last trump" & get back to you in a follow-up post.

Before addressing that, let me remind you that Enoch & Elijah experienced pre-trib raptures. Some speculate that they are the two witnesses. Even if that were true, they receive their own resurrection & rapture prior to the Second Coming.

In this 2006 radio interview Dave Hunt says he doesn't have the answer about "the last trump," but offers why he has concluded that the Rapture precedes the Great Tribulation:

https://www.thebereancall.org/content/will-rapture-occur-last-trump

Take a look at what John Ankerberg has had to say about the last trump:

https://www.jashow.org/articles/prophecy/when-does-the-last-trump-sound-the-rapture-the-second-coming-or-some-other-time/

I just started it a while ago today and thought I would just get a little breathing room and separation form the other comments. Not that they were bad I just thought this might work better.

I'll try and get back with more.

Blessings.

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David Winter

Here are two more articles with a pre-trib position on the Last Trump:

https://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-teacher/whats-the-so-called-last-trump/

https://www.heraldofhope.org.au/rapture-last-trump/

Charles Stanley subscribes to the pre-trib Rapture:

https://www.intouch.org/read/understanding-the-end-times-the-rapture


On the topic of the Rapture & the Tribulation Keith Green wrote, "Pray for the pre-, but prepare for the post-."

https://www.lastdaysministries.org/Groups/1000086195/Last_Days_Ministries/Articles/By_Keith_Green/Will_You_Be/Will_You_Be.aspx

Thank you for your posts and articles. I have been trying to get back to you but have been busy. Yet pretty soon I hope I'll get back to you with some replies and thoughts.

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David Winter

Regarding the earliest ante-Nicene church fathers voicing support for a pre-trib rapture. I've seen the quotes and did a bit of looking into it. Some of these quotes are taken out of context in my opinion and there are a few who seemed to believe in a pre-trib event. But the overwhelming majority of the dearly church fathers were post-trib in their views and it is easily documented. I've been looking thorough them again So, replying to the argument that many say there is no evidence in the early church fathers for a pre-trib rapture the contemporary advocates of the pre-trib view quote a few church fathers here and there to support a pre-trib view but leave out the large majority of early church fathers who did not support this view.

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David Winter

Grant Jeffrey shares quotes from another early church father on the pre-trib rapture:

http://www.pretribulation.com/tag/grant-jeffrey/

One thing I want to reiterate is that I do not view the Rapture as a "get out of jail free" card. The terrible sufferings of the underground churches in Korea, China, & elsewhere are proof of that. I don't see the USA in Revelation. It could be already broken financially & reduced to a Third World Nation by the eve of the Tribulation, if not already destroyed in a nuclear holocaust when the Apocalypse unfolds.

I admit I don't have them before but my recent looking at the early church fathers shows a large majority of them advocating a post-trib view. Are they taken into consideration or just ignored by the pre-trib advocates? I'm not trying to be a smart alec or sarcastic but when investigating and looking into something one must be prepared to accept what the facts are one way or the other. The lists of supposed early pre-trib advocates it seems should also be accompanied by a list of the many early church fathers who were solidly and unmistakably post-trib.

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David Winter