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Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 1165
Snoqualmie, WA


Travis said

What I have noticed is something deeper than mere academic error due to a misinterpretation of scripture. There is something spiritually quite off with the apostolic / prophetic movement as a whole

What is it exactly ( if you have discerned the spirit) that is 'off'?

In looking over IHOPKC they state clearly they are not N.A.R. related nor are they teaching dominion theology. They do teach what I would consider re-constructionism or some version of their own.

Appreciate what insights you and Frank have on this.


 2018/5/10 18:49Profile


Marvin, why dont you cut and paste the relevant parts that you were reading..............bro Frank

 2018/5/10 20:27

Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 2178
Hemel Hempstead



One of the classic rules of hermanuetics is that you always use the new testament to interpret the old,
There are different approaches to hermanuetics whether we are dealing with different texts normally it is the historical , grammatical approach

The thing is hermanuetics comes alot more complicated when you are dealing with the cults as they tend to twist scripture for there own purpose using techniques such as collapsed contexted or maybe techniques there are whole books written on this subject

D a Carson book on scriptures is a good introduction
You have authors like zuck



IHOP is very dangerous , I have read there statement on the NAR , I am actually from a charasmatic background myself , it seems very legitimate but whether it actually meets with actual practise , I grew up with the Toronto blessing movement and know the dangers of the kanses city prophets

I have been worried with some things that Francis Chan has said at bethel and at IHOP

The hard truth about IHOP and Mike bickle

To me IHOP is almost a subject for another thread

When I see IHOP I see Toronto blessing style things

I can't deal extensively with this movement in this section as I do research and becuase I am from this background it is just remembering all the sources

I am saying this lovingly



When we as christians say people love Jesus what do they mean

Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

How do we reconcile the thing as when people say that they love the lord but do they read the Bible as one has to coinside with another .

Dominic Shiells

 2018/5/11 5:00Profile

Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6468


Here are links to IHOP's Affirmations/Denials and FAQs and their statement of faith:


 2018/5/11 7:30Profile

Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2082
Joplin, Missouri


It is hard to say exactly what I have felt about IHOP. I cannot say that it is a spirit of this or a spirit of that. What I can say is that the foundational reasons for the existence of the ministry are off.

IHOP is an offshoot of the apostolic prophetic movement. It was established primarily by way of prophetic words that were given to Bickle by Bob Jones. While it is its own entity, it does flow with the same water as that stream.

The idea is that 24/7 praise and worship is prophetic. By prophetic, it is believe that this worship calls into being things that are not yet. The belief is that this movement is the fulfillment of Amos 9:11. Those who are part of this movement are the prophetic forerunners of what God is about to bring forth in this earth, and are called, through prophetic declaration in worship, to bring these things to pass. Along with this is the idea that this is part of God's plan to bring global unity and peace and a kingdom for Christ to reign over (For example, this is from a teaching in 2017 dealing with Ethiopia and Egypt.) IHOP is a totally independent ministry and as such is not part of any other group. However, they are part of the same stream of beliefs.

So I am not sure I can totally answer your question, or I fear I cannot answer it to full satisfaction. Wish I could. I would just suggest that a person spend a little but of time on the websites of these ministries and ministers and read what they write. A great deal can be gleaned from that.

I have to be very open and honest and say that this topic is a little bit difficult for me. I never want to be the guy who cries "heresy". But I do have a responsibility to speak truth and be honest when i think there is error. I know and love many people who are involved with the A / P movement and with IHOP. There are many who are strong believers. This is not like I am saying that these people are Mormons or Jehovahs Witnesses and are lost. These are believers who are following a movement that has very shaky foundations. My concern is that when all is shaken, many of them may fall due to the weakness of the foundation. I also am concerned that there is a fundamental spirit of error in this movement that could turn many away from truth in the future.

I hope I am wrong, and would gladly be so.

I think I am not.


 2018/5/11 8:35Profile

Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6468


I agree that things are “off” in these “prophetic streams.” I think there is a melding of Christianity and new-age-ism. That is how I can best describe it from what I have seen first hand.


 2018/5/11 8:53Profile

Joined: 2006/11/26
Posts: 4609


IHOP uses this scripture as their basis for their worship and prayer. It is referred to as "Harp and Bowl":
"And He came and took the scroll from the right hand of the One seated on the throne. When He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp, and they held the golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And they sang a new song: “Worthy are You to take the scroll and open its seals, because You were slain, and by Your blood You purchased for God those from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.…" (Revelation 5:7-9).

Continuous prayer that is 24/7 also uses the Moravians as an example of a prayer meeting that actually lasted 100 years, and many missionaries were sent out around the world from the Moravians:

"The Moravian Community of Herrnhut in Saxony, in 1727, commenced a round-the-clock “prayer watch” that continued nonstop for over a hundred years."

If your read the IHOP'S statement of faith, I believe that we would all agree that it is scriptural with some wiggle room concerning endtime eschatology in which many of us would differ.

I believe that there are still Apostles and Prophets in the Church today. I also believe that there are many that are calling themselves Apostles and Prophets that are not the real thing. Many that are Apostles and Prophets do not use a title, but they are functioning as Apostles and Prophets.

I believe that the gift of prophesy should be functioning within the Church today.

The one area that I see a lot of deception within the Prophetic Movement and possibly IHOP is that many Christians are seeking a word from the Lord, and are looking to those that are well known in this movement for guidance.

The main source of guidance for every believer should be the Word of God and the indwelling Holy Spirit.

What I see as the main danger for deception in IHOP and the prophetic movement is that too many are taking prophetic words as "Thus saith the Lord" without judging them by the Word of God and the Holy Spirit, who is our teacher, and the One that has come to lead us into all truth.


 2018/5/11 13:46Profile

Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 2178
Hemel Hempstead


One thing you may not know IHOP is mentioned by CARM as a cult!

The International House of Prayer (IHOP)

I have read the statement regarding what they think of the NAR

What is IHOPKC’s stance on the New Apostolic Reformation?

My worrying statements come from Joels Army Statements

What does IHOPKC believe about “Joel’s Army”?

There are some other statements in this FAQ section that are blatently unbibical

The Mike Bickle and IHOP Cornucopia of False Teaching, Bridal Weirdness and 24/7 Confusion

it is interesting with Steve Kozar as his daughter went to IHOP and lost her salvation!


In the book
A New Apostolic Reformation?: A Biblical Response to a Worldwide Movement14 Nov 2014
by R. Douglas Geivett and Holly Pivec

One prominent prophet-guided organization is the International House of Prayer (IHOP), which was founded based on prophetic words—described as IHOP’s blueprints—given by US prophet Bob Jones.252 IHOP is advised by a prophetic network made up of about 250 people under the oversight of a Prophetic Council.253 Individual prophets also provide guidance for apostolic networks of hundreds, and sometimes thousands, of churches. One such US prophet is James Goll, the official prophet for Harvest International Ministry (HIM), an apostolic network of more than 20,000 churches in 50 nations.

Geivett, R. Douglas. A New Apostolic Reformation?: A Biblical Response to a Worldwide Movement (Kindle Locations 1976-1982). Weaver Book Company. Kindle Edition.

In 1991, Bob Jones confessed to sexual misconduct and the abuse of his prophetic office. This misconduct reportedly “consisted of encouraging women to undress in his office so they could stand ‘naked before the Lord’ in order to receive a [prophetic] ‘word.’”380 Despite such a gross abuse of his office, he remained influential as a prophet in NAR until his death in 2014. In a popular IHOP teaching series, Mike Bickle referred to him as one of his “two spiritual fathers through all these years.”381 Jones was so revered in NAR that his memorial service

Geivett, R. Douglas. A New Apostolic Reformation?: A Biblical Response to a Worldwide Movement (Kindle Locations 2848-2854). Weaver Book Company. Kindle Edition.

NAR teaching is that the miracles performed by the end-time church under the leadership of the new apostles and prophets will be unprecedented, both in terms of their grandeur and their frequency. Mike Bickle, founder of IHOP, pronounces, “The end times is the Church’s finest hour, when miracles will occur and supernatural prophetic direction will be released. The miracles of Acts and Exodus will be multiplied and combined on a global level.” He grounds this claim in Micah 7:15.485

Geivett, R. Douglas. A New Apostolic Reformation?: A Biblical Response to a Worldwide Movement (Kindle Locations 3510-3515). Weaver Book Company. Kindle Edition.

Under the leadership of NAR apostles and prophets, the church is to become a miracle-working army that will usher in God’s kingdom. This army goes by various names, including Joel’s Army, based on NAR interpretations of Joel 2,480 and the Manifest Sons of God, based on a NAR interpretation of Romans 8:19.481 Belief in miracles as a contemporary phenomenon is not unique to NAR.

Geivett, R. Douglas. A New Apostolic Reformation?: A Biblical Response to a Worldwide Movement (Kindle Locations 3491-3496). Weaver Book Company. Kindle Edition.

it is interesting testing this against this


Ministry Time with Bill Johnson, Mike Bickle and Todd White (Onething )

Screams NAR

Dominic Shiells

 2018/5/12 13:43Profile

Joined: 2023/4/13
Posts: 8


In my opinion, when Jesus spoke of the time of great tribulation etc. he was referring to the catastrophic events that would occur in the Jewish war that culminated in the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. Jesus stated quite clearly that all of these events were to happen before "this generation" (i.e. those folk to whom he was speaking) would all die. Following this time of tribulation, Jesus would rule until all would be placed under his feet and then, as Paul wrote, the Kingdom would be handed to the Father. This is the time when the spring rising from the Temple grows into a mighty river that refreshes the Dead Sea and the rock not cut by human hands grows into a mountain filling the Earth. The prophecy of the spring is, I believe, symbolic. The Temple is the church, the spring is the growing Kingdom and the Dead Sea is the world which shall be refreshed and transformed into the Kingdom on Earth. The rock not cut by human hands is the Kingdom beginning with Jesus and then drawing in all of society.
We are now living in the "1,000 years" but this is also the time of Armageddon; both exist together, but Armageddon is not a literal (physical) war. It is what the controversial 17thC Quaker James Nayler termed "the Lamb's war". It is Jesus symbolically riding the White Horse of victory, conquering all that opposes him both within individual people and within the spheres of influence of society until God is all in all.
This understanding does not depend on the false doctrine of dominionism, but on a realization that Jesus is ruling NOW from (not just in) Heaven and is present with us as our Lord and Teacher. If Christians within the spheres of influence would just meet together to prayerfully and meditatively seek consensus on what is God's will for the gentle guiding of that sphere, we would all witness the rule of Christ expanding within society until the great Day of the Lord.

 2023/5/17 22:24Profile

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