We need to understand what Dominic, Travis and Frank are saying:

John 18:36-37 (KJV)
36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.


Acts 1:6-8 (KJV)
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.


There is a big difference in influencing people toward Christ hoping they will believe and be saved than trying to change a culture that is of the world system that will have nothing to do with Jesus being Lord. The very word "church" means to be called out of the world system that is under the control of Satan. This present world age is under the dominion of Satan. When a person gets truly saved, being born of God, he automatically changes from being the enemy of God to now becoming the enemy of the world. Notice the scripture:
James 4:4 (KJV)
4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.


You cannot make the world christian no more than you can make the devil a christian. The problem with the 7 mountain mandate is not "that we shouldn't try to reach everybody". We are suppose to try and reach everybody but we are also suppose to be separated unto God knowing that God's kingdom is a spiritual kingdom until God destroys Satans world kingdom. Then he will set up His own Kingdom.

The problem with this 7 mountain heresy is the fact that they are trying to do the very thing Jesus told them not to do...and that is try to take over and rule the present world system. We can't force the world to be christian and all the christians who get caught up in trying will be displeasing to God. Most are now focusing on worldy things instead of spiritual things. We must not love the world nor the things in the world or the love of the Father will not be in us! This world is passsing away and the lusts thereof but he who does the will of God shall abide forever.

2 Peter 3:10-18 (KJV)
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.


Blessings to all!

Frank I agree 100% with your last post.

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Todd

I Dom: Well, this time your responded with something that I can actually address.

No one seems to have any evidence of the Illuminati, so that one's still in the gossip/conspiracy status.

You didn't relate to me how Matthew 24, must oppose Christian influence, prayers or godly men seeking political office. So, I take that as a concession. Your quotation eludes to 'being hated', which we always have been to one degree or another and if you're referring to a specific 'time' of intense hatred, do you have proof it is 'right now'? But in light of Matt 24 and other texts you quote... So even if I am hated, am I not to pray? Or if I believe what sinners do not believe am I to concede that I shouldn't pray for my leaders or seek godly men to lead our communities?

Is it me Dom, or is your eschatology teaching you to fold up your tents and just try to survive the world you live in?
This is in my opinion more telling of your faith in God, not error on their part.

If you know anything about the Charismatics or the Pentecostals' you should know they are all about preaching the gospel. So, their intent is gospel living, gospel preaching and Holy Spirit filled lives lived out in order to do the will of God in the world. They are not less than you in this respect. These are not going to fold up their tents and wait to be martyred, far from it, they are seeking God to preserve their country and preserve their freedoms to preach the gospel. You seem to have down your sword and given your enemy the victory without a fight.

If you've read any of Brother Blaines postings about the current martyrs, none of them have folded their tents, and seek to hide away waiting to die...then quote scriptures that seem to imply their eventual demise.

So what if there is lying wonders, should we stop preaching the gospel to the lost? Should we just let any humanist atheist, evolutionist, vain philosopher have the world...and we Christians do nothing more than concede defeat?

I for one have not subscribed to the 7 mountain movement/prayer/apostles/generals or any of it, but I do recognize when someone is against something for no substantive reason.
What you seem to be doing...and correct me if Im wrong is condemn them as false prophets and teachers, signify your own defeatist attitude toward this world and gospel preaching, then quote large quantities of scripture to validate a position that is against prayer, against Christian involvement, against revival, against bringing hope to people.

The strength of your claims is in the bare assertions they are false...and you are true; and again, they are wrong to pray and believe God for these things...and you wait for a death camp.

lastly you're probably right about my reading of Matt 24 and 2 thess... not being read 100 times; I've read it more than that...and will read it again and again.

Dom, it appears as though you're just proof-texting other Christians into falseness and error when eschatology is not an essential...if it is and we here at SI require a conformity to your specific views...I will have to join the false/heretic/errant/lost with all the others.

I had to re-read this post several times...just because what you're saying is so over the top I didn't want to misunderstand your view.

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Marvin

rbanks: Thank you for the clarification. I think it helps a lot. The only thing I would add is that I am not sure about the motive of those teaching the seven mountain strategy. I am not sure they are trying to force the world to become Christian. I do think, from reading their own publications, that they honestly believe that we have to infiltrate and take over the leadership of these areas to "prepare" the earthly kingdom that Christ will come and assume leadership over. It is a very bizarre idea if you understand what scripture says about what happens when Christ returns. I think their motive is, for the most part, a pure one, but not a scriptural one. Pure in their intentions, but very wrong in their understanding of scripture and how things come to pass in the end. But since their actions are based in Biblical error, they will not produce the fruit they desire.

That being said, I vote, and I feel like it is a good thing to try to elect the most Godly men that we can to public office. I teach in a high school with many Christian teachers. I feel like education is a place where we need Christian administrators and teachers. We need to have as much impact and influence in our world as we can in my opinion. But the reason why is the dividing line in this discussion, I think.

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Travis

Marvin, et. al. : I would suggest anyone not familiar with this teaching do a little research. I would say that one should NOT go to any websites that shout "heresy!!". Those sites are never a good idea in my opinion. Instead, go to the source and read that firsthand. There are some very alarming doctrines that form the foundation of the apostolic/prophetic movement as a whole. I have read somewhat extensively people like Lance Wallnau, Rick Joyner, Bill Hamon, Bickle at IHOP, and others. If you dig into the foundations of their ideas, they make some very fundamental errors in Biblical interpretation that are, I think, pretty significant. Significant enough that I would recommend that people be careful that they not become involved in this movement. I am not saying for a moment that there are not genuine believers with passionate relationships with God that are part of this movement. However, I have seen many people get led off into really crazy error through this movement, and it always comes back to those foundational errors.

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Travis

If Brother Banks is right and the effort being made by the adherants to the 7 mountain movement are in effect a type of culturization of people into Christian morals and thinking...it would stand to reason it red-flags some of you and surely does me as well. But, I wonder if that is really what's being done? Are they after re-culturization?

Or are they after a God given move of the Spirit to turn men toward the wisdom and will of God?

I realize Frank and other make powerful points about not getting our priorities mixed, but I wonder too that we seem to be condemning what we all love and know to be God given.

None of this is essentially gospel-ministry preaching
Christians founding
Hospitals
Schools
Colleges
humanitarian outreaches
laws/legislature
modes of justice
modes of imprisonment and execution
fairness in race/sex/economic status
rights to speech and free thought

all of these were not born of the ungodly, the atheist or their humanist, these were born of men who understand the principles by which Christians live and expanded them to be a blessing to the world.

But it seems to me in our haste to reject all but straight up gospel preaching...the Church is not meant to influence the world beyond it's own four walls.
This sort of thing Jesus didn't do, the apostles didn't do...not because they became statemen, but because they recognized the power of their words and testimony influenced and found favor with them that 'hated them'.

Next time you go to a hospital...you may curse it since some Christian who believed in compassion to all men...missed his calling and didn't huddle up waiting to be killed.

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Marvin

Thanks Travis, I will make a concerted effort to clarify intent from their own words...and yes, I don't read the name callers first, they will be justified or condemned by their own words.

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Marvin

I would like to say Marvin that there was no haste in my reply or coming to the conclusions that I have. I have the benefit of having attended a dispensationalist(which I dont agree with) Bible College and also I attended IHOP( which I also do not agree with given their dominionism and other issues) for a year( at the Lord's leading) Also, just like the rest of us, there is countless years of prayer and study and direction by the Holy Spirit.

I can say that I met wonderful people at Bible College and IHOP, certainly Christians no doubt, but misguided in my opinion. Lou Engle holds great sway there and often spoke of taking the government for God and so on because of the mountain of politics. It seemed to me very apparent that like many men of the world, these men wanted influence in all the corridors of power. Power and influence is seductive and few men resist its tremendous gravitational pull. That is why men like Ravenhill and Tozer were never really nationally prominent because they were not seeking influence and power and would speak the truth regardless of their audience without fear or favor. This is certainly not the way to win friends and influence people.....bro Frank

Gal 1:10  For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ. 

Mar 12:14  And when they were come, they say unto him, Master, we know that thou art true, and carest for no man: for thou regardest not the person of men, but teachest the way of God in truth: Is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar, or not? 

Todd writes........

"Frank I agree 100% with your last post." Just recovered from my faint and wanted to say "shucks." :) ......bro Frank

Thanks Frank for the insight. So you have heard first hand their dominionism has turned from kingdom of God to kingdom of man? Meaning, instead of gospel ministry gospel proclamation...thereby creating more converts and creating an increasing Christian witness/influence among the masses. You are saying they are attempting an old testament style conquer-the-land and afterwards all things become Israel?

Then if I understand you correctly you are saying the 7 mountain/gates/influencers are not targeted as areas for Holy Spirit gospelizing...but rather targeted as places for some men to position themselves in order to gain power and eventually prominence so that various Churches or organization can exert influence and make decisions?

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Marvin