Great point about Faith! If we knew the time and hour we wouldn't have to live by faith we would just know. You seem to for sure have more knowledge on this topic than I and I think that is awesome. I look forward to gleaning more knowledge in this discussion and as I dive into scriptures.

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Matthew Guldner

I would recommend Tim Conway's : "Eschatology: A Study of the End Times"

https://illbehonest.com/series/eschatology-a-study-of-the-end-times

Well many things in the Bible including the existance of the Church was hidden in the Old Testament so this is not uncommon.Also the scripture rewards the people who diligently search for knowledge and understanding so its not all going to be sitting right in front of you,urs staff

Problem Passage

Hebrews 11

Hebrews 11King James Version (KJV)

11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.

3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.

15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:

19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.

21 By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.

22 By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.

23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment.

24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;

25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;

26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.

28 Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.

29 By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.

30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.

31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.

32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:

33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions.

34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.

35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:

37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;

38 (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


Would you say these are not part of the church, the word Church is translated Eklessia

Greek
https://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/ekklesia.html

The same word in the Greek Septugient is used for a Congregation
Occcurences of the word Eklessia Church in the Old Testament
occurs 75 times in the OT. de.4.10 ; de.9.10 ; de.18.16 ; de.23.1 ; de.23.2 ; de.23.3 ; de.23.3 ; de.23.8 ; de.31.30 ; jos.8.35 ; jdg.20.2 ; jdg.21.5 ; jdg.21.8 ; 1sa.17.47 ; 1sa.19.20 ; 1ki.8.14 ; 1ki.8.22 ; 1ki.8.55 ; 1ki.8.65 ; 1ch.13.2 ; 1ch.13.4 ; 1ch.28.2 ; 1ch.28.8 ; 1ch.29.1 ; 1ch.29.10 ; 1ch.29.20 ; 1ch.29.20 ; 2ch.1.3 ; 2ch.1.5 ; 2ch.6.3 ; 2ch.6.3 ; 2ch.7.8 ; 2ch.10.3 ; 2ch.20.5 ; 2ch.20.14 ; 2ch.23.3 ; 2ch.28.14 ; 2ch.29.23 ; 2ch.29.28 ; 2ch.29.31 ; 2ch.29.32 ; 2ch.30.2 ; 2ch.30.4 ; 2ch.30.13 ; 2ch.30.17 ; 2ch.30.23 ; 2ch.30.24 ; 2ch.30.25 ; 2ch.30.25 ; ezr.2.64 ; ezr.10.1 ; ezr.10.8 ; ezr.10.12 ; ezr.10.14 ; ne.5.7 ; ne.5.13 ; ne.7.66 ; ne.8.2 ; ne.8.17 ; ne.13.1 ; job.30.28 ; ps.22.22 ; ps.22.25 ; ps.26.5 ; ps.26.12 ; ps.35.18 ; ps.40.9 ; ps.68.26 ; ps.89.5 ; ps.107.32 ; ps.149.1 ; pr.5.14 ; la.1.10 ; joe.2.16 ; mic.2.5 ;

Dickey, Joshua. The Complete Koine-English Reference Bible: New Testament, Septuagint and Strong's Concordance (Kindle Locations 39477-39496). . Kindle Edition.

1577 εκκλησια occurs 118 times in the NT. occurs 75 times in the OT. from a compound of (1537) and a derivative of (2564) ekklesia 3:501,394 ek-klay-see'-ah Noun Feminine from a compound of (1537) and a derivative of (2564) ; a calling out, i.e. (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both) :--assembly, church. a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating the assembly of the Israelites any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance, tumultuously in a Christian sense an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting a company of Christian, or of those who, hoping for eternal salvation through Jesus Christ, observe their own religious rites, hold their own religious meetings,

Dickey, Joshua. The Complete Koine-English Reference Bible: New Testament, Septuagint and Strong's Concordance (Kindle Locations 429705-429715). . Kindle Edition.

To say that the church is simply an Entity that appeared at Shauvot or Pentecost does not take into account the rest of scripture nor the fact of how saints in the old testament were saved

Grk#:1577 εκκλησια / ek-klay-see-ah (noun): Assembly Freq:&118 Heb#:6951 קהל / qa-hal (noun): Assembly—A large group, as a gathering of the flock of sheep to the shepherd.

Jeff A. Benner. New Testament Greek to Hebrew Dictionary (Kindle Locations 705-708). Ancient Hebrew Research Center. Kindle Edition.

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Dominic Shiells

"If the 7 years are SO important why didn't God tell us directly ? God didn't tell us - but then who did?"

Matthew 24:36 But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

I would say if God the Son doesn't know the time, and God the Spirit doesn't know it is safe to say there is a reason we don't know.

2. 42 Months
Revelation 11:2 says that Gentile armies will trample Jerusalem for 42 months.

Revelation 13:5-7 says the Beast (Antichrist) will blaspheme God and conquer the saints for 42 months.

3. 1260 Days
Revelation 11:3 says that the Two Witnesses prophesy during this same period for 1260 days.

In other words, the 1260 days of the Two Witnesses is the same 42 months that the Temple Mount is trampled while the Little Horn/Beast speaks against God and oppresses the saints (Rev 11:1-3=Dan 7:25=Rev 13:5). It is also the same 3½ years that the righteous "Woman" is protected in the wilderness (Rev 12:14). All these events relate to the tribulation when the Antichrist continues for "a time, (pair of) times, and half a time" as Daniel 7:25 says.

Is this consistent repeated length of 3½ years for the tribulation surprising to you? I can appreciate if it is as most Christians have been taught that the tribulation or great tribulation is seven years long."

However, as you can see, the only time "seven years" is mentioned in connection with the great tribulation is for entire seven year 70th week. The great tribulation is only the second half of that. The first half is not called "the tribulation" also but has another name given by Jesus: the "beginning of birth pains/sorrows" (Mt 24:8; Mk 13:8).

By the way, if you doubt that a basic math error of this kind could really creep into Christian doctrine, then consider how there are not "three days and three nights" (Mt 12:4) between a "Good Friday crucifixion" and an Easter Sunday resurrection!

https://escapeallthesethings.com/1260-day-42-month-tribulation/

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Dominic Shiells

Hi Deltadom,
Im sure the great doctor is an avid Post Tribulationist! and again if you are consistant with typology their are a whole lot of hidden gems for the Christian to find and not be afraid off,Urs staff

I love Typology but not when it detracts from history, The overuse of Typology can turn into Allegory which is not Good. I just love the right use of Typology.

If you understand the Allegorical Method and how dangerous it is.

Allegorical interpretation of the Bible
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegorical_interpretation_of_the_Bible

Then there is the catholic Interpretation of the scriptures.

Which is crazy, I am trying to find there 4 principles that they use to interpret the scripture and a literal interpreation was only taken after the reformation

We do not need elusive hidden gems that noone else can see else that becomes like a secret or gnostic faith which can be scary. The bible should be intepreted in prayer but yet also in study as there are first century concepts which dont make much sense to 21st century minds.

God bless you in Christ

John 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

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Dominic Shiells

Reply To This Post |

Hi Markuskiwi,
On Unity,Unity is mentioned in regards to the gifts in the new Testament .I think people miss that...Unity is mentioned in the Epistles when the List of Gifts are mentioned .I can therefore deduct that their can be no real and lasting Unity in the Church unless the Gifts are in operation correctly,
Unity is not a buddy buddy thing , its the machine working properly and in order ,its the body parts doing what they arre meant to do(not something else)at the time they are meant too with the humilility they are meant to have. urs staff

Which verse ?

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Dominic Shiells

Which scriptures support the pretrib view?

Blaine

If we believe the Bible is our soul rule of authority. If we believe that all scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching or doctrine. Then it would stabd to reason there must be scriptures that teach 2 resurrections.

In the interest of a Berean spirit are there dcriptures that teach a pretrib view?

Blaine

Hi Deltadom,
We have to be consistant about typology.If we use the old testament temple structure and its contents clearly as typology then we have to accept all the other typology.For instance we have except that 3 1/2 yrs,1260 days or time,times and half a time as typology or the 7 fat cows and 7 skinny cows as typology.Unfortunately we accept typology that suits us and reject clear typology that doesnt suit us.
Also looking for an Anti Christ and Christ turns up has already produced a problem prior to The Tribulation.That would be a stupid position also.Time wasted looking down rather than up.
With The Tribulation we have to understand that its God pouring out his wrath and that wont be on Israel.If the nation Israel doesnt come to accept Jesus as saviour before the Tribulation if we've tried and failed what else can we do about it,doesnt mean we love Israel any less or more,it doesnt mean we dont want to see them saved less or more,
urs staff

You have to have a definition of typology as I think you are mixing it up with allegory or things like metaphor or even an idiom.

The old testament temple and tabernacle structure are something that are clearly things that are not typology, they can have some typological meaning as there are four temples mentioned in scripture, with even references being referred to in revelation.

The time of the tribulation is not typology as 1260 days or 3 1/2 years are clearly mentioned in scripture. So they are literal days.

The seven fat cows and seven thin cows are part of pharoahs dream. They represent seven good years and seven bad years.

Typology the greek word represents a seal so someone like Joseph or King David would be a type of Christ. The bible is very specific in its uses of the word Typology as there are other words such as Allegory.

Imagine you place a clay seal in wax and you are left with an imprint that is what the greek word typos means.

What I dislike is say using say the fact that Enoch is a typological type of the rapture of the church or maybe Elijah and then basing a doctrine from spurious connections

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Dominic Shiells

/If the average pew occopyer who espouse the pre trib are not aware of these beliefs then they dont believe in them.So they are safe from these heresys!We can only hope the average is the majority of believers.
Also just because their are wrong teachings attached to either the Pre Trib or The Post Trib view it doesnt make the view wrong .We cant throw out the baby with the bath water just because the bathwater is unclean!urs staff/

I wonder at times what would be their reaction dug a bit and found that these views which you deem as heresy do indeed accompany the pre-trib view and have long been taught by the more famous pre-trib leading advocates.

Do you believe that one can be born again without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as is commonly taught in the pre-trib view regarding those who come to faith during the tribulation?

/Also just because their are wrong teachings attached to either the Pre Trib or The Post Trib view it doesn't make the view wrong .We cant throw out the baby with the bath water just because the bathwater is unclean!urs staff/

Obviously, one of the views is wrong and dramatically wrong. You seem to advocate a type of relativism that seems somehow to say that both views may be right in spite of errors that accompany the basic teaching.

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David Winter