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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2753


 Without spot or wrinkle

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. (Ephesians 5:25-27)

I've been taught that when the end time pressures and squeeze of pressing and dire events come upon the last generation of saints before Christ comes that the church will finally repent and embrace such a degree of sanctification and separation that God will finally have a church without spot or wrinkle. Is that really so?

If Christ sanctifies one when they place their faith in Him and He washes and cleanses them by the washing of the word aren't the spots and wrinkles already gone?

If the last days church strives and works to get rid of its "spots and wrinkles" won't it be engaging in meritology - trying to do something so right for so long that it earns merit before God? Is being part of a church without spot or wrinkle meant to be the possession of only one final generation before the Lord comes? What of the saints over the centuries who were saved and sanctified and cleansed by the washing of the word? Didn't their spots and wrinkles disappear? Working to earn something and receiving by faith are two different things. If God cleansed us by the washing of His word at our salvation then He already sees His church as glorious and free from spots and wrinkles. Because of what He put in us and not because of what one last generation will earn! That's not a call to indifferent laziness but how can a last days squeeze make the church glorious if it is already in Christ? Perhaps the last days church will display glory because if has learned to walk in settled and confident faith of what Christ has already done for it.


_________________
David Winter

 2017/9/25 8:55Profile
amajesticone
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Joined: 2016/3/10
Posts: 43
Massachusetts

 Re: Without spot or wrinkle

David asks the questions:

"If Christ sanctifies one when they place their faith in Him and He washes and cleanses them by the washing of the word aren't the spots and wrinkles already gone?" "Didn't their spots and wrinkles disappear?"

And then comments, "Perhaps the last days church will display glory because it has learned to walk in settled and confident faith of what Christ has already done for it."

I say "Yes!" and "Amen!"

I find a connection with the only two scriptures that I find in the New Testament about "worshippers." JESUS says in John 4:23 "But an hour is coming, AND NOW IS, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshippers."

And Hebrews 10:1-2, "For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can NEVER by the same sacrifices year by year, which they offer continually, MAKE PERFECT those who draw near. Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the "worshippers," having ONCE been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins?"

A full reading of the letter to the Hebrews especially Chapters 9 and 10 reveal what a great thing God in Christ has done!! 🙌

I love Hebrews 9:28, too, "so Christ also, having been offered ONCE to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time for salvation WITHOUT REFERENCE TO SIN (because He has already dealt with it and taken it out of the way!! ) to those who eagerly await Him. The true worshippers??


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Mary

 2017/9/25 13:13Profile
Gloryandgrace
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Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 1165
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re: Without spot or wrinkle

When the Church is reconciled to God through Christ, we are all clean, without sin, without reproach, without spot or wrinkle.
But the gospel comprises more than reconciliation, it contains the living representation of God in the world. This life of Christ in obedience, commission, love, sacrifice, motive, devotion to God and compassion for others has yet to be perfected in the lives of God's people. In this way there are spots, there are wrinkles, there are sins. Imperfections in our relationship with God falls forward into imperfections with people and as such an imperfect presentation of truth.
We are the sons of God, we are children of light. Our lives are to manifest the truth about God as Jesus demonstrated truth about his Father. God who sees all knows us all can clearly tell just how his bride the body of Christ is growing as a whole, learning, surrendering, giving, sacrificing in like manner as her Lord.
Jesus return is to a spotless bride, which means the true Church has some perfecting and maturing yet to be done. The individual has the same needed maturing and both of them will arrive to meet their Lord as one body prepared and adorned.
We do well to consider one another as a bride to be prepared and adorned for her meeting. Yet, we are married to Christ, dead to the law and are free so that we may live unto him who purchased our redemption...and sanctifies us for an everlasting union with Christ.


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Marvin

 2017/10/4 20:21Profile
Elibeth
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Joined: 2011/8/14
Posts: 1148


 Re: Without spot or wrinkle

Bro David,
Don't you believe that the washing of Water by The Word, is a
continuation ? ....as The Lord puts His finger on things is in our life,...the taking away of the old garment,that we may be clothed upon of His godliness / His righteousness ,.... as His / The Word comes up by His Devine enfluence,Grace, to wash our word / will away,that His might prevail / live in us ? ( The resurrected Lord in us )


2Pet.3:14,
¶ Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

* I believe salvation is, initially,
Rom. 3:--Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins 'THAT ARE PAST" through the forbearance of God;...
(our original sins,.. up until His Blood was applied ,... after this an entrance was made for us through His Blood,..He is now our Father,...He has given us His Name.......Now, 'Hallowed be that Name',


26 To declare, I say, "AT THIS TIME" his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

* but it is also a continuation ....
....We are not to neglect so great a salvation,.....(Heb.)..and as He wants to save us unto His righteousness judgments in our lives,then we are not to neglect His saving arm....Allow the washing.,....as He is showing us His judgments in matters.

Please, ..I am saying this only in love, it is not mine, just passing it on.
----------------
elizabeth

 2017/10/4 22:39Profile
Elibeth
Member



Joined: 2011/8/14
Posts: 1148


 Re:

Mary, you said,
"I find a connection with the only two scriptures that I find in the New Testament about "worshippers." JESUS says in John 4:23 "But an hour is coming, AND NOW IS, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshippers."

But what does Jesus mean by those words,..?
....the true worshippers shall worship 'The Father' in spirit and in truth.

Jn.17:17,
Jesus say, "Sanctify them through thy truth: THY WORD IS TRUTH."

And The Father,Who is God, is The Word / The Spirit,...He who speaketh...
Now, how are we to worship, Him ? ..What did Jesus mean?

❤️🙏
----------------
elizabeth

 2017/10/4 23:09Profile
amajesticone
Member



Joined: 2016/3/10
Posts: 43
Massachusetts

 Re:

Elizabeth,

Speaking of HIMSELF, this is what I hear Jesus saying, "something greater than the Temple is here" and "something greater than Jonah is here" and "something greater than Solomon is here." What is the "something GREATER?"

Neither in this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, shall you worship the Father...an hour is coming and NOW IS, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth: for such people the Father seeks to be His worshippers."

What makes the New Covenant GREATER than the Old? I have found my answer in Hebrews Chapter 10. Really think about the question the writer asks. "For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the GOOD THINGS TO COME...can NEVER by the same sacrifices...which they offer continually...MAKE PERFECT those who draw near. Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshippers, having ONCE been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins?"

When CHRIST came He said, "BEHOLD, I HAVE COME TO DO THY WILL, O GOD." "A BODY THOU HAST PREPARED FOR ME." We have been sanctified through the offering of the BODY of Jesus Christ ONCE for all. Jesus did not enter the earthly temple, a mere copy of the true one, but into HEAVEN itself, now to appear in the presence of God FOR US!! We now have confidence to enter the HEAVENLY Holy place by the BLOOD of JESUS, by the NEW and living way which HE inaugurated FOR US!!! The veil is torn! The "worshippers" are made perfect and able to enter the heavenly Holy Place and worship the Father who was IN Christ, who through the Eternal Spirit, offered Himself. By ONE offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. How else could we ever enter?!!

I spent many years living under "having had my former sins forgiven" and needing to iron out "present and future" wrinkles and spots, and TRYING to make myself ready, only to find three more spots and two more wrinkles...and then seventeen more wrinkles and thirty two more spots....and then to come to know how exceedingly sinful I was and in need of a Savior. I have no righteousness of my own, but am clothed in His Righteousness alone...covered by His Blood...able to draw near.
💜✝️
Mary





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Mary

 2017/10/6 18:02Profile
Elibeth
Member



Joined: 2011/8/14
Posts: 1148


 Re:

Mary,
Yes, the One greater is truly Jesus,...

But I say this in kindness and truth,...if I am understanding you rightly,
then the way you see this,is the way that MANY see it,but that is not the way I see it,..the whole counsel of God speaks differently.

I believe that when we see it rightly,the Whole Word of God will flow into One Truth.
And if The Lord is gracious enough to share / show us, it is not ours, but His.

Lovingly,
---------------
elizabeth
❤️


 2017/10/6 22:34Profile
amajesticone
Member



Joined: 2016/3/10
Posts: 43
Massachusetts

 Re:

Elizabeth,

The Lord is gracious to share Himself, on this we agree 😊
I hear your kindness and your "lovingly" sharing 💜
I know that none of us can convince another, only the Lord can do that. I'm thankful for the forum that allows us to be "free to disagree."

I would like to ask two questions.

If you are continually in need of being washed, does that cause you to be separated from God, and are you in and out of the Holy Place, where you have to keep being washed by the Blood to go back in?

Were all your sins put upon Christ and taken out of the way when He died on the Cross, or just your former ones?

Lovingly 😊
💜





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Mary

 2017/10/7 6:41Profile
Elibeth
Member



Joined: 2011/8/14
Posts: 1148


 Re:

Mary,you said,
"I know that none of us can convince another, only the Lord can do that. I'm thankful for the forum that allows us to be "free to disagree."

That is very true, Mary-
And I too,am thankful for SI forum .
The only one I go to.

I will try to answer your questions,..

" If you are continually in need of being washed, does that cause you to be separated from God, and are you in and out of the Holy Place, where you have to keep being washed by the Blood to go back in?"

( " With the washing of water by The Word" )

Yes, as we look back,at some of the communeing that I had w/ David,(that says a lot of how I see it,according to The Word,and His Spirit.
Yes I do believe that we are to allow The Lord to take His Word,and wash our word away when our ways /words are not in submission to The Spirit' leading in our life,hearing His judgments / how He see's things / matters, ...differing from His.
..... .
..this Grace is truly a gift,...and a blessing,..not to be shunned.


Like unto Paul,also unto us, by seeking The King' righteousness,...having a spirit of, "what would thou have for me to do ,Lord ( king)...It was/ is a "high calling"mark.

He said that he had not apprehended that yet,but that is what he was reaching after....in Christ Jesus....me also.

No, He has not left me,but,...
I am without excuse,...and,he that knoweth to do good and doeth it not,...
and what-if He just quits talking to us, ..drawing us ?..Do we fear God ?

Wherever we are when The Lord speaks to us,..that is Holy Ground....

Remember God speaking to Moses ?

❤️
-------------------🙏
elizabeth




 2017/10/7 21:37Profile
Elibeth
Member



Joined: 2011/8/14
Posts: 1148


 Re:

Marvin, ( Gloryandgrace)....
I appreciate your thoughts on this subject brought by our dear brother,David.

I do agree with you-
....
So we press on,
------------------
elizabeth


 2017/10/8 13:36Profile





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