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TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5608
NC, USA

 Re:

If you read the stories of "Our Lady of Fatima" or the visions of Bernadette the focus is all on Mary. At Fatima she allegedly appeared holding a rosary which I thought was a tad odd.

Once again the issue is not individual Catholics who do know any better but rather the RCC that has pushed blasphemous beliefs for centuries.

I can agree that perhaps protestants have overreacted and under- respect Mary. But Mariolatry is alive and well in the RCC. The "blessed virgin" is mentioned incessantly in mass and prayer books etc etc. it goes far beyond mere respect and honor.


_________________
Todd

 2017/9/25 10:14Profile









 Re:

•••
•••Towards even veneration of Mary, Martin Luther and others respected her highly. Here is the problem, we as evangelicals now in the 21st century have "reacted" and are not doing what is reasonable and should be done, ie celebrating and reverencing Mary the very mother of Jesus Christ who bore him into this world. We venerate and respect speakers on this website such as Tozer, Ravenhill and also the prophets Elijah and Noah but do we have equal or arguable more respect for the greatest among women? •••

Greg surely you are not suggesting that we venerate and exalt Mary as the Catholics do. In their theology Mary is exalted as mediatrix and Co mediatrix equal to Jesus Himself. In other words Catholics regard Mary as an intercessor to Christ himself. She is equal to Jesus.

This clearly flies against the teaching of scripture when Paul writes to Timothy,

••• For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.••• 1 Timothy 2:5-6

Also Jesus telks us on John,

••• Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.••• John 14:6

Luke does record of Mary's Magnificat,

••• For behold, from the this time on all generations will count me blessed, ••• Luke 1:48

She is blessed in that God did mighty things through her in caring the Messiah.  But this does not imply that she is to be venerated or worshipped.

Catholics believe that Mary is without sin.  Yet Luke records again Mary saying,

••• And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.••• Luke 1:47

Catholics who would argue that Mary was without sin often overlook the above verse. Mary needed a savior as we all did.

For sure Mary was blessed for carrying the son of God. And it was a mighty blessing. But Mary is no more blessed than either you or I because we too have the Lord Jesus Christ dwelling in our hearts through faith.

Again brother, I hope you're not suggesting that we exalt and worship Mary to the point that she is equal to Jesus himself.

There is only one who is worthy of our devotion and that is the Lord Jesus Christ.

My thoughts.

Bro Blaine


 2017/9/25 10:40









 Re:

From Got Questions.org

Question: "Is Mary the co-redemptrix / mediatrix?"

Answer: Some Catholics view Mary as a co-redemptrix or a mediatrix who plays a key role in the salvation of mankind. (The suffix -trix is a feminine word ending in Latin, so a redemptrix is a female redeemer, and a mediatrix is a female mediator.) Within Catholicism, there is a drive to define a new Marian dogma in which Catholics, as a matter of faith, would be obliged to accept these three doctrines: (1) Mary participates in redemption with Jesus Christ, (2) grace is granted by Jesus only through the intercession of Mary, and (3) all prayers from the faithful must flow through Mary, who brings them to the attention of her Son. This movement would, in practice, redefine the Trinity as a kind of Quartet.

The belief in Mary as a co-redemptrix would be in addition to current Catholic teaching on Mary, which states that Mary was a virgin perpetually, that she never had intercourse with her husband, Joseph; that she never had children other than Jesus; and that she was sinless and ascended into heaven. These teachings are more than unscriptural; Scripture directly refutes them.

The idea that Mary is a co-redemptrix or mediatrix contradicts 1 Timothy 2:5, which says, “For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus.” Jesus is the Mediator. There is no mediator between man and Jesus. Jesus Himself dwells in believers; thus, none is required (Colossians 1:27).

Jesus is the perfect and sole Mediator between man and God because He is the sinless Son of God. Mary was not sinless. There is no Scripture whatsoever to back the claim of Mary’s sinlessness or of her assumption into heaven. This dogma was accepted as a result of papal proclamation. In the biblical narratives, Mary is pictured as a humble and submissive young woman, faithful to God, grasping the implications of what is about to happen to her, and uttering praises and doxologies (Luke 1:46–55). In fact, in her Magnificat, Mary says, “My spirit rejoices in God my Savior” (verse 47). The clear implication of Mary’s calling God her “Savior” is that she recognized her need of salvation. Just like the rest of us, Mary needed a Savior, a Redeemer.

Jesus Himself indicated that Mary holds no special place relative to redemption or mediation. In Matthew 12:47–50, Mary and her other sons were trying to see Jesus while He was teaching. “Someone told him, ‘Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.’ He replied to him, ‘Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?’ Pointing to his disciples, he said, ‘Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.’”

Later, at the foot of the cross, Mary is a grief-stricken mother. She did not suffer for mankind as a whole; she clearly suffered her own pain and mourning. She is one of the people receiving salvation from Jesus, not a contributor to His work. She is anguished and must be cared for by the apostle John.

After Jesus’ death and resurrection, Mary was part of the community of believers continuing in prayer and supplication prior to Pentecost (Acts 1:14). Mary is “most blessed among women” (Luke 1:42) because she was the mother of the Messiah. But she is not divine and cannot be seen as part of the Trinity. She did not redeem us from sin and cannot be made part of the redemptive process.


 2017/9/25 10:50
Martyr
Member



Joined: 2012/6/10
Posts: 225
United States

 Re:


When talking about catholicism as a religion yes there is much wrong. But keep in mind the catholic church is made up of 1.5 billion people. These people are flesh and blood, they are alive, they have been through things we havent and have had their own distinct experiences that shape who they are. They are nuanced, as all people are, and youre attempt to label them all as collectively bad is pathetic and shows much lack of wisdom. God will certainly not be dealing with them collectively, for we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ. And please remember it is Christ who sits on that throne.

Get Christ out of your box. Your judgements are not His. He sees the hurting and the broken and those who are hungry and thirsty. The way i see it both protestants and catholics are in the exact same boat, they have both been taught certain doctrines and teachings, taught how to see the bible, taught what is okay to believe and what is heretical and because of that both of them see God through a very distorted, limited and untrue lens.

Because of this God is robbed of His power and only allowed to act through their lens. Not that He really is but in their minds He is. Let me explain. If you took a protestant and a catholic in a room and an act of God was performed in there that contradicted their established view of God BOTH of them would find a way to interpret it according to what they believe is true rather then forming their beliefs around it. How can they do otherwise if to contradict what they have been taught is heresy? And do you see how neither are loving the TRUTH? You are both in the same room.

Does anyone have ears to hear? Eyes to see? Or is this going to be heard by protestant ears and seen by protestant eyes and readily dismissed?


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Tyler

 2017/9/25 12:30Profile
docs
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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2200


 Re: Pentecostal Catholics

By the beginning of the 1980s over 120,000,000 Catholics worldwide had become Pentecostal and spoke in tongues and manifested other gifts of the Spirit. How did that happen? I'm not such sure God allows one to have this experience if they don't believe in Christ. The baggage of wrong doctrine is another matter than Christ coming into one's heart with spiritual gifts resulting. Can't Christ Himself save at any time in any place in any denomination?


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David Winter

 2017/9/25 13:01Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5608
NC, USA

 Re:

Tyler- I appreciate what you are saying- I really do. Those who know me well on this forum will know that I am not dogmatic about most things and in fact I am something of a crusader against dogmatism.

But there is some danger in "excusing" the very bad doctrines of the RCC. I have said at least 3 times that I don't blame individual Catholics for the mess of the RCC.

But when you start saying "God will meet them where they are" you are only about .5 inches from saying it really doesn't matter what is taught by the RCC because God will "meet the practitioners where they are."

There may be true believers in the LDS or JWs but we would not then say that the LDS or JWs are ok.

There seems to be much more leniency shown to the RCC and I am not sure why, as they do more damage in a year than the LDS and JWs have done in their entire history.


_________________
Todd

 2017/9/25 13:27Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Maryolotry is definitely prevalent among multitudes of Catholics and it's definitely something we cannot compromise with. Sadly, many worship Mary as the queen of heaven and I'm convinced it cuts them off from salvation.


_________________
Oracio

 2017/9/25 13:31Profile
Martyr
Member



Joined: 2012/6/10
Posts: 225
United States

 Re:

TMK- I understand your concern. Youre worried such a thinking will excuse error and cover everything with an "Its okay God sees the heart" attitude. There are those who hold such a view, but i will not let their doctrine which has been born out of fear to mar the truth of Christ.

I would like to ask, are all your doctrines correct in every way and form? If no (i dont think any of us would say yes) should I think of you the same way I think of the catholics who also have faith but hold to false teachings?

We are talking about men who have believed on Christ (catholics, and of course i speak generally because I have to.) They believe that they are saved by faith and by works. Is this false? Well, they are missing the mark. It is works through faith that saves a man. Are they in a damnable heresy? It seems to me to be more confusion then anything, at least they have some of the concepts down including having faith in Christ, which is salvation and it is a starting point for us seeking to help them towards truth.

They are saved by their faith but they are unable to grow in Christ because of the false things they have accepted. They cant move forward, its blocking their way. Does that make you mad at them? Or does it make you love and pity them and seek to help? They know not what they do. Do you see sin is not excused? Its effects are real and will be felt but we were talking about salvation, and that is brought about by faith in Christ.

As for LDS and JW I do not know much about them but I do know that anyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved, even if it is by fire.

I have not said catholics are "ok". I believe many who have faith in Christ are saved but like i said they are unable to grow in truth because of what they accepted. If being saved is the goal then I suppose many are okay, I however am not content with the bare minimum for myself or anyone else. Id rather we all come to the completion of understanding in Him.


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Tyler

 2017/9/25 13:56Profile









 Re:

Tyler writes......

"We are talking about men who have believed on Christ (catholics, and of course i speak generally because I have to.)

They have not believed on Christ, whatever that means to you, they have, by accident of birth, been born into religion.

"They believe that they are saved by faith and by works. Is this false?"

Yes, completely false. They do not, nor can they, believe they are saved at all. For a catholic to say they were "saved," would mean their own church would announce an anathema over them.

"They are saved by their faith."

Catholics do not believe, not do they even have the concept that a. they are saved or b. they are saved by their faith. Without works ( the sacraments) they cannot even imagine themselves in purgatory ( a place, of course, that does not exist)

"As for LDS and JW I do not know much about them."

I would agree with that statement about yourself, but what do you know and by what authority do you speak on matters of Catholicism? Are you one, or do you just know one? .......bro Frank

 2017/9/25 14:10
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5608
NC, USA

 Re:

//should I think of you the same way I think of the catholics who also have faith but hold to false teachings?//

Well there are false teachings and then there are false teachings.

My wife came out of RCC after she met me; her whole family both sides were all RCC from way back. I believe her mother came to true faith in the months prior to her death. Whether she already had true faith is open to question. I just don't know.

Of course I am not mad at catholic persons. Already said that. All the blame lies in the institution and of course those who are culpable will answer to God alone.


_________________
Todd

 2017/9/25 14:25Profile





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