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Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2071

 Re: Michael

Todd said,

"If I believe that Jesus died for my sins and was resurrected, but was the brother of Michael the archangel am I saved?"

These two men believed, not that Michael the archangel was the brother of Jesus, but that He was Jesus.

Revelation 12:7

Michael and his angels fought against the dragon: by whom is meant not a created angel, with whom his name does not agree, it signifying "who is as God"; nor does it appear that there is anyone created angel that presides over the rest, and has them at his command; though the Jews seem to imagine as if the angels were ranged under several heads and governors, of whom they make Michael to be one;...but it seems best to interpret it of Jesus Christ, who is equal with God, is his fellow, is one with the Father, and in whom the fulness of the Godhead dwells bodily: he is the Archangel, the first of the chief princes, the head of all principality and power, who is on the side of the Lord's people, pleads their cause, defends their persons, and saves them; see Jde 1:9; John Gill

The attempts of the dragon proved unsuccessful against the church, and fatal to his own interests. The seat of this war was in heaven; in the church of Christ, the kingdom of heaven on earth. The parties were Christ, the great Angel of the covenant, and his faithful followers; and Satan and his instruments. The strength of the church is in having the Lord Jesus for the Captain of their salvation. Matthew Henry

Todd also said,

"It is on the bases that Frank has described that I believe the RCC fits the bill for most end times prophecies be it the whore church or the beast or "doctrine if demons" etc etc.

The Puritans believed it, commentators like Matthew Henry and Gill believed it and there is no good basis to say they are mistaken"

So Todd, my question is, is there good basis to say they are mistaken about Michael?

 2017/9/24 7:34Profile

Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 1838
Hemel Hempstead


If you're answer is no, you are not saved or born again, then you have no right to judge the 1.5 billion catholics in this world.

The bible judges them as they have a different gospel!

Galatians 1

I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Catholics believe in a Gospel that good works get yourself to heaven.

Essentially if you are presenting a different gospel which the Catholics do then Paul says let you be anathema! you are outside the faith !

Dominic Shiells

 2017/9/24 15:20Profile

Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 1838
Hemel Hempstead


As I was reflecting before the Lord sometime ago the Spirit spoke to me. He said the cross is a narrow way. Only a few will find it.

Amen !


i wish more christian would read Pilgrims Progress!

Dominic Shiells

 2017/9/24 15:21Profile

Joined: 2012/6/10
Posts: 225
United States


You did not answer the question. Why can you be a mess but saved yet they cannot? Many catholics are raised in the faith. They have accepted Christ but a lifetime of bad teaching is hard to break, their view is contorted. You expect them to snap out of it and instantly be made right upon salvation yet by your own admission you arent able to do that either.

Paul reprimanded the BELIEVERS who had departed from faith unto works. He did not say they were not saved. He does not call them anathema, he calls the derilict teachers who teach works over faith and not faith unto works. Therr is a difference. He does not condemn the "lay person"


 2017/9/24 17:32Profile

Joined: 2011/4/24
Posts: 208
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


My dear brothers and sisters,

I would beseech the Lord for a Spirit of peace and understanding to reign in this conversation. I think often it is very easy to react in fear, rather than in understanding. I must admit, I do not agree with every stance of the Roman Catholic Church. However, to be fair - in this SermonIndex website, there are some writings in here that were written by Catholic Mystics. Madame Guyon, Brother Lawrence - both of whom the evangelical world has owed much to. These two authors influenced Watchman Nee, who in the end became a martyr in a Chinese prison. Guyon influenced Leonard Ravenhill as well. A.W. Tozer read some of the Catholic Mystics in history. Should we write off these men because they read Catholic material? Of course not!

And let us not forget the Early Church Fathers - Irenaeus, Augustine, Tertullian, Barnabas, Cyril of Jerusalem - these men were part of the Catholic (Universal) Church/Body. Augustine venerated Mary, but do we write off our brother? Of course not!

I only write this to try to be fair and balanced for all of us so that there will be some clarity on the matter. My purpose is not to win an argument, but to bring about a peaceful resolve. Some of the theologians we look up to have strange beliefs, but we dare not write them off for we know not the extent of the grace of God. Let's take a few moments to look at the theologians that are close to home. John Stott believed in annihilationism - which is no hell and a ceasing of existence. C.S. Lewis believed in praying for the dead. Lewis also believed that an unbeliever in hell may perhaps find grace if he repents. "Lewis believed that????" you may ask. Yes, he did. Yet he was one of the greats in the 20th Century for Christianity.

The point is this: God has the same amount of grace for those who are on the right side of history, and also for those who are on the wrong side of history. And most of the time, we are usually wrong about something. My hope is that we would not write off people too quickly and that we would not react out of fear. May we show the love of Christ to those with whom we may disagree with. Judgment is in the hands of God. It's not in the hands of mere mortal men. For we know not the heart of man as He does.

Your Servant in Jesus' Name,

- Michael Barnabas Hoy-Kuen Liao

Michael Liao

 2017/9/24 23:08Profile

Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA


Great post MichaelLiao!

The Catholic Christian music artist Matt Maher came to mind. His song "Lord, I Need You" is currently one of my favorite contemporary Christian songs (though I prefer listening to the Chris Tomlin rendition of it so as not to stumble others). Many Evangelicals love that song and sing in their churches (Btw the same goes for Hillsong songs though I'm sure many of us here highly disagree with that church's teachings).

Matt Maher has 104 songs and I browsed through the lyrics of many of them out of curiosity. I noticed only one song wherein he asks the saints to pray for us, and another one wherein he mentions Transubstantiation. All the other songs I looked at had lyrics that any Evangelical would agree with, songs that glorified the Triune God through Christ.

So what's my point? Should we write off Matt Maher as an unsaved apostate heretic? Or should there be room for grace and mercy toward him and for accepting him as a brother in Christ despite our differences in some of those areas? Personally, it's a bit of a tough call for me at this stage and it's something I'd have to wrestle with more, though I lean toward accepting him as a brother.



 2017/9/25 1:28Profile

Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 1838
Hemel Hempstead


Matt 7
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

What I find so hard is that we are dealing with scripture we tend to think God is swayed by the emotional ideas of men.

Acts 4
12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Why do we think that God has to be swayed by man's feelings , Paul proclaims in Galatians if any man preach any other gospel , the Catholics proclaim another gospel therefore it puts them outside the aspect of salvation same with people like the Jehovah's witnesses and any other so called church group that does not preach the gospel.

god wrote a book the Bible and by that book he is going to judge the world and those that reject him will spend eternity in hell.

Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off

what we have today is people making God in there own image and idolatry which is forbidden in scripture that goes on in the Catholic church and in christiandom which is palletable to there own tastes and preferences

in the 3rd century the arian heresy got spread through music , it essentially denied the deity of the lord Jesus Christ. it became so popular.

what I find is that we cannot ignore scripture when we are talking about Jesus or God because of our synchronisation with a society that has gone against him.

Noah preached and he was the only one saved with his family

people like Rob bell and John stott deny the existence of hell yet it exists if you have to deny hell you also have to deny the existence of heaven.

people in the world say God is the only who will judge me , yet not understanding that God wrote a book called the Bible and that God has only one way to be saved through his son dying on the cross for our sin not through baptism , it is by grace alone, through faith alone , through Christ alone

There are many in the Protestant church who have not heard the gospel who are not saved, we forget the god we served wiped out an entire planet during the time of Noah's day except for eight people , the Bible talks about as in the days of Noah so shall it be in the days of the sons of men

god has provided an ark through the gospel and groups like the Catholic church reject it

as Christians do we follow Christ and his word or something else

Because we tend to not read the Old Testament that same God that wiped out the World during Noahs day, came down to die for our sin and that same God that destroyed Jerusalem during Jeremiahs time.

Why is it we tend to play fast and loose with God and God is only a loving God if he can tend to destroy wickedness and evil.

Dominic Shiells

 2017/9/25 2:17Profile

 Re: The Chutch Fathers Will Bring You to the Tiber

••• And let us not forget the Early Church Fathers - Irenaeus, Augustine, Tertullian, Barnabas, Cyril of Jerusalem - these men were part of the Catholic (Universal) Church/Body. Augustine venerated Mary, but do we write off our brother? Of course not!••• 

It's those evangelicals who read the church fathers that wind up crossing the Tiber River. Consider the  article below. 


Another Protestant Pastor Converts to Catholicism

Check out this link. Another Pentacostal one jumps the Tiber River!

"“When I read the Church Fathers, that’s when the sacraments began to open up to me, and I began to see how central the Eucharist was to the early Church,” he said. He realized that “if the Eucharist was commanded by Christ, I want to receive the Lord.”

Once again, by looking at how the early Church practiced their faith, it is seen that it was Eucharist-centric with the believers gathering to receive the body and blood of Christ, not a symbol as the reformers later claimed.


John Henry Newman who converted from the Anglican Church to Catholicism in the 19th century said,

••• To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant.”•••

The about quote was taken in the context of reading the church fathers.

I believe we would do well to stay away from the church fathers and immerse ourselves in the New Testament, the Word of God.  Our reality is the Lord Jesus Christ and not the Pope of Rome.

Paul writes,

••• But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.•••

This is what the church fathers do. They lead one from the simplicity of Jesus Christ and faith in Him to the Tiber River. Now the question remains who is going to cross to Rome.. The question also remains. Who is going to go to His cross.  Who is going to go to Jesus.

Simply my thoights.

Bro Blaine 

 2017/9/25 5:44

Joined: 2002/12/11
Posts: 37574
"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11


And let us not forget the Early Church Fathers - Irenaeus, Augustine, Tertullian, Barnabas, Cyril of Jerusalem - these men were part of the Catholic (Universal) Church/Body. Augustine venerated Mary, but do we write off our brother? Of course not!

Brother Micheal,

thank you for your very thoughtful and balanced post, yes there needs to be a place of middle-ground and acceptance of those God accepts though we from our sight and carnal mind cannot understand it.

Towards even veneration of Mary, Martin Luther and others respected her highly. Here is the problem, we as evangelicals now in the 21st century have "reacted" and are not doing what is reasonable and should be done, ie celebrating and reverencing Mary the very mother of Jesus Christ who bore him into this world. We venerate and respect speakers on this website such as Tozer, Ravenhill and also the prophets Elijah and Noah but do we have equal or arguable more respect for the greatest among women?

Of course we have our quick bible verse answers to try and dismiss anything of this but the reality is the early Church, the very book of acts church respected Mary more then evangelicals did.

Luke the writer of the book of Acts (by the Holy Spirit) records that mary the mother of Jesus was present at Pentecost, it was significant enough for him to record this.

Thank you again brother Micheal for your very graceful words.

SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2017/9/25 8:10Profile


Greg, do you know anything of co-redemptrix? Have you met any saint who disrespected Mary? Can you quote multiple NT Scriptures that venerate and elevate her to be the queen of heaven? These old straw men arguments that you have rolled out have no bearing in reality. Go into any Catholic household in Scotland or Ireland or Mexico to name but a few, and you will see that it is Mary that is worshiped. The Rosary is the key to having your prayers answered, not praying to Jesus but instead praying to Mary because after all they say, who would have more influence on Jesus than His mother. This fundamental lack of knowledge of Catholicism and how it operates is very sad. Yet the Scriptures do tell us that Gods people perish through lack of knowledge..........bro Frank

 2017/9/25 9:39

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