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drifter
Member



Joined: 2005/6/6
Posts: 693
Campbell River, B.C.

 Re:

"Wilkerson was best remembered for his book The Cross and the Switchblade and for founding Teen Challenge, which now has centers around the world (including one a few miles from our office). Dr. Wood says there are currently 24,000 men and women with life-altering addictions being helped on any given day. In the late 1980s, Wilkerson founded Times Square Church, which has had a great impact in New York City.

What hasn’t been highlighted as often—until now—are the ways Wilkerson’s life influenced others in ways he probably never knew. For example, the young Roman Catholics at Duquesne who received the baptism in the Holy Spirit, which sparked the Catholic charismatic renewal, had read The Cross and the Switchblade, as well as They Speak With Other Tongues by John Sherrill. Along with his wife Elizabeth, Sherrill co-authored Wilkerson’s book.

There is a chapter in The Cross and the Switchblade in which Wilkerson tells a Catholic priest that the former drug addicts who received the baptism in the Holy Spirit had more power to live for God. In the book he described what the Bible says in Acts about the Holy Spirit. My longtime friend Bert Ghezzi, who was among the first leaders in the Catholic charismatic movement, told me that reading those books certainly made the students (which included him) more open to the Spirit in those fateful days in early 1967. That movement today is said to now include 120 million around the world." From Charisma Magazine

I formerly was very anti-catholic, but now I believe there are some of God's children in the catholic church. Please don't misunderstand me, I don't agree with catholic doctrinal errors (much as I don't agree with Protestant doctrinal errors).


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Nigel Holland

 2017/9/21 19:00Profile
Gloryandgrace
Member



Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 1162
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:

I think its important to understand two facts when we address Roman Catholics. 1. Doctrinally they are in error, so those of you who maintain a firm stance on salvation by grace through faith, through Christ alone have taken a good first step. 2. The condition of the person is important to know, some with little to no knowledge of scripture can truly be born of God and I've met them and ministered to them. Some with a great deal of RCC indoctrination can talk up a storm about the bible and Jesus yet they are not born of God and resist the idea that salvation by grace through faith through Christ alone is going to save them.
Two errors that we who are born of God should avoid.
1. Making a doctrinal statement concerning their salvation is as good as knowing them personally, therefore accepting them or anathematizing them are equally valid. This is false. 2. Judging them based upon their demeanor, kindness, gentleness and concluding they must be born of God is false.
Distinction in Ministry.
Many in the RCC are equally biased in favor of their Church and beliefs as we are in Protestant doctrine and tradition. When the Catholic anathematizes us because we refuse allegiance to papal decree or authority we need to recognize what they are doing. Namely its just an easy categorizing of people with dissimilar beliefs so that the real work of Jesus can be avoided. What work is that? Investing in them...that is the work. In order to demonstrate our doctrines are part of what it means to be the body through which the Living Lord Jesus reveals himself we must in the same attitude as Jesus lay down our lives for them. In order for them to understand new testament doctrine as a protestant speaks, it must be lived out in front of them. Yet, we very conscientiously speak of Christ living through us, and not as the RCC speak of Christ rewarding us for our good deeds. They need to know our love and care for them are not good deeds done in order to earn or acquire a salvation to come. We rather are living out our salvation and their differences in doctrine and practice will be made more evident to them by linking what we say with why we do what we do.
It's right to draw the line and refuse compromise with RCC doctrine yet, its right to love and show compassion on them, living out the doctrines we know and speak boldly those doctrines make all the difference in what motivates us. God's love toward me and God's love coming from me are what it means to be saved, they cannot earn what I am able to do and I cannot earn the life I am freely living in front of them.
Mean ole protestants kicking everyone out because they do not hold the same understanding of the bible is a false and corrupted view. This is what Satan wants to portray us as being. Compromising protestants relaxing every doctrine for the sake of a pretended unity and peace only makes both protestant and catholic deniers of the true faith.
Love and truth work together in the Spirit led mans life. Love and compassion, love and agreeableness, love and consideration, love and respect will give you an audience with the catholic. If it does not, move on and witness to someone else.
Any new believer can find some bible truth tangential to RCC teachings and go on a rant...I know I have many a time. Yet, it pretty much accomplishes nothing. What does accomplish something is the investment we make into peoples lives who can see what we live and what we believe point to a Lord and Savior Jesus Christ...and how approachable, lovable, receptive, caring, forgiving and merciful he is.
We have good news for them, we have Jesus to offer, let us not bury it in anathemas or blind acceptance whereby the gospel is never expressed in love and deed.


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Marvin

 2017/9/21 19:05Profile
AbideinHim
Member



Joined: 2006/11/26
Posts: 3566
Louisiana

 Re:

I am fully aware of what the Catholic Church teaches. I attended a Catholic school through the 6th grade, and was still a practicing Catholic, though not a very good one, until I got saved.

What concerns me is that it is much easier to witness to those Catholics that were not strong in their faith than to witness to what I would call a devout Catholic.

It is much better to share the love of Jesus with strong Catholics, and then as the Lord leads to share the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ with them. If we attack the Catholic faith, you have lost them, they will never be open to anything else that you have to say.

The main object ought to be to share Jesus with them as the Lord leads. They need to be saved so that the light of God will shine upon the false doctrine that is taught in the Catholic church. A born again Catholic that reads the Word of God has a much better chance of seeing the light concerning the Catholic church and actually leaving the church.

Many on these forums are very critical of the Charismatic movement, and I can fully understand why. But what they don't understand is that back in the late 60's and 70's there was a tremendous move of the Holy Spirit in most all the denominations, and many Catholics were saved and baptized in the Holy Spirit. Priests were being saved and sharing the gospel and the necessity of having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. The Lord used a Catholic Priest that would teach the truth of Jesus Christ in a Charismatic prayer meeting, which resulted in my salvation. There were a good many priests and a lot of Spirit filled Catholics that were getting into the Word of God and ended up leaving the Catholic church, and I was one of them. There were also many saved, Spirit filled believers that stayed in the Catholic church in an attempt to help others come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. I believe that their intentions were noble, but in many cases while not abandoning their love for Jesus, they fell back into many of the old Catholic traditions.


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Mike

 2017/9/21 19:09Profile
Gloryandgrace
Member



Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 1162
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:

Back in the early 80's a big Charismatic conference was held in Anaheim Ca. I went outside to talk with the Charismatic Catholics that were there. I spoke with Several of them for a considerable time, others I asked directly about being born of God. I came away very disappointed in what I heard. From those I spoke with, some told me they didn't believe or know what being born again was. Others told me they were born again every time they took the Eucharist, others were ambiguous about their understanding of salvation by grace.
For me, at that time, with those people, I came away with a very low opinion of the Charismatic Catholics because they were still being introduced to a salvation and Christianity that did not have Christ as the only means of obtaining a salvation, they were still being taught to add their church attendance, their taking of the mass and their adherence to rule as part of what it means to obtain salvation from Jesus. For them, Jesus had em workin for it.

They boasted of great things in the conference and a wonderful worship time, but I couldn't get past the inability of any of them I met to offer back to me a biblical reason for claiming they were saved.


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Marvin

 2017/9/21 19:30Profile









 Re:

Mike writes......

"It is much better to share the love of Jesus with strong Catholics, and then as the Lord leads to share the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ with them. If we attack the Catholic faith, you have lost them, they will never be open to anything else that you have to say."

Mike, that is a straw man in the debate. We are not talking about how to share the gospel with catholics, the question that was addressed was the fact that catholics are not Christians and those who insist that they are make it almost impossible to actually share with catholics. They are doing damage to the work of the Kingdom.

Marvin, you are right on the money about so called catholic charismatics who were supposedly saved. Almost every catholic who was actually saved came out, and some, very few, ignorantly stayed in. Their ignorance, the lowest common denominator, should not be the measure. The measure is what has happened in the last several hundred years and beyond.

We had a lot of experience with so called catholic charismatics in Scotland. The number one identifying factor was that they supposedly spoke in tongues. It turns out that the vast majority were "taught," how to speak in tongues. They were to take some vowels and repeat them rapidly and do it with "faith." Kinda fake it till you make it. Sad. Even Billy Graham was caught up with this nonsense urging catholics who got saved in Scottish rallies, if they had no church other than the catholic church, to go back to the catholic church which is why there were protests outside of his crusades in Scotland.Where are the catholic charismatics now? Mostly swallowed back up in catholicism...........bro Frank

 2017/9/21 19:57
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5608
NC, USA

 Re:

Mike-

I do agree that attacking the tenets of RCC is not the way to win over Catholics. That must come later and exceedingly gently. If you come out with guns blazing you will get nowhere, at least not in my experience.


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Todd

 2017/9/21 20:22Profile
AbideinHim
Member



Joined: 2006/11/26
Posts: 3566
Louisiana

 Re:

The number one identifying factor was that they supposedly spoke in tongues. It turns out that the vast majority were "taught," how to speak in tongues. They were to take some vowels and repeat them rapidly and do it with "faith." Kinda fake it till you make it."

Frank, this might have happened in Scotland, but the vast majority of Catholics that were being saved during this great outpouring of the Spirit in the late 60's and early 70's had a true baptism of the Holy Spirit.

There are Catholics that are in the Catholic church that are saved, not because they believe on what the Catholic church teaches about salvation, but because they believe in their hearts that God raised Jesus Christ from the dead, and confess Him with their mouths. The Catholic church does confess the Apostles Creed at every mass.

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (Romans 10:9,10)


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Mike

 2017/9/21 20:36Profile
Gloryandgrace
Member



Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 1162
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:

Hi Frank: My purpose in any discussion that effects how others believe and how the gospel I know has been subverted I aim straight at how I am going to approach them. Speaking in the abstract about doctrinal differences in this group is preaching to the choir, it would be hard to find a dissenter on this subject. You see I am already sold on the idea a corruption of the gospel was delivered to these Charismatic Catholics...at least the ones I met, so for me the necessity is how I should deliver the true gospel to them. I consider sharing that as the required biblical component when noting falsehood has been preached.


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Marvin

 2017/9/21 21:23Profile
Martyr
Member



Joined: 2012/6/10
Posts: 225
United States

 Re:

yuehan,

The verse simply does not say that. Jesus is talking to the Jews. They don't believe Him to be speaking the Truth. He says anyone who chooses to do the will of God will come to know that Jesus is speaking Truth, even the very words of God. I'm afraid your interpretation is neither stated nor implied anywhere in the verse or context.

I think you should take your own advice and stop reading the scriptures through a pre-formed lens and see them openly, outside of your own thoughts or the things you have been taught as true. It is not an easy thing to do.



To the forum at large. The criticism of the catholic church from what I have seen is they do not believe in sola scriptura, they worship mary and they only do what the priest tells them to. (I'm sure there are others but this is what I have seen)

My question is, any of these necessary for salvation? Where does it say you can't be saved if you don't believe in sola scriptura? Do they worship Mary? We know from Joshua 24:2 that the patriarchs worshipped idols too! They follow the priest? How many times did Paul exhort the church members he was addressing to mimic him and to believe his words (he even called it HIS gospel!)

This is going to be sidestepped but I'll say it anyways. We are not defending Christ we are defending the beliefs and traditions we have regarding Christ. Christ is Life! And He has made this life available to all through FAITH in His son.

The doctrines and teachings of the catholic church are in many ways wrong. But we are not saved by doctrines and teachings. If you believe Jesus is the son of God, died for our sins and rose again then you are saved. (Obviously I am talking about truly believing, faith means to be convinced of something)
Who among us had a full comprehension of the gospel upon salvation? Who among us knows everything thats true and rejects everything that's false? I still don't! But because I have had an open heart God has led me into more and more revelation of what that means. I say "revelation" you understand not that I know more about it but I SEE more of it, in my spirit and, praise God, sometimes in my mind.

A recurring statement that has come up is if a catholic truly believes the gospel they will not stay in the catholic church. This is wrong. You grow as you allow God to grow you. You can choose to hold on to things you've been taught and see God through it thus inhibiting the growth God had in store for you, as many of the people on this forum do. It's the same thing. Yet I would not say the people on this forum are unsaved because they believe in things I consider flat out wrong. It is by faith we are saved. God knows the heart. I will not judge that but I WILL love and do what I can to take that spark of faith in Christ (however small) and bring it out more and more unto the fulness of knowledge.

It's not ecumenism, I do not compromise the truth but I do realize the truth does not come from believing in correct doctrine but by walking deeper and deeper into truth. We learned our doctrine by words, great is the man who learned it by revelation. And for the record that man will have very different beliefs then the ones on this forum.


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Tyler

 2017/9/21 23:03Profile
Gloryandgrace
Member



Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 1162
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:

Brother Tyler: I am not going to sidestep you, I believe you bring out an excellent point. In my travels as an Evangelist to Catholic countries ( Philippines and Mexico) there are many Catholics just waiting to hear the gospel, if you were to give them a series of denunciations and anathemas concerning their doctrines you would find yourself preaching to the trees. But, if you approach them on common ground Jesus Christ...I get an audience and I am able to bring the scriptures to the front and offer what I believe to be a more accurate representation of the gospel. Because of that, God has brought many to saving knowledge, healings and to churches preaching sound doctrine.
I find in those countries they have been exposed to terrible teachings, stuff that's just ignorant superstition. So, what is called for? Compassion, care, patience and a willingness to bring truth to bear upon their hearts. The Holy Spirit has done wonderful works in bringing the light of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ...because the face of Jesus Christ was preached.
Yes there were some who resisted our message, but we do not consider them enemies because not everyone gets saved on the first or second entreaty.
I appreciate your candor, doctrinal exactness has it's place and that exactness is demonstrated first, when you have a religion that parallels Christianity via its vernacular, redefining Christianity must be more than long distance rejection of their doctrines. God has given the increase by reason of the Spirit of God giving them revelation too just as we have received and believe me, our genuine Christ-likeness conveys a powerful message that God's Spirit uses in bringing many sons to saving faith.
Well said brother and do well to love them.


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Marvin

 2017/9/21 23:41Profile





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