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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Are you a liar?

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a-servant
Member



Joined: 2008/5/3
Posts: 435


 Re:

havok20x,

1 John, the whole book is a reality check of the Christian life,
whether our faith is based on the Jesus of the Bible, or a
another Jesus.

That reality check, if we really know Him, or know someone else
got kicked out as invalid by people that confuse Paul on the isssue
of Justification vs. Sanctification.

This has been talked about here for years, so it's not something
new, the commandments - as repeated by Paul at several places
of his teachings, don't earn anyone any favors or salvation, but
without them sanctification or walk in the Holy Spirit is a mere
lip service and not reality.

That's where the holiness movement messed up, they wanted
instant and total sanctification through a second blessing,
instead of going the Christian gospel way of the doctrine
of the apostles. The strange fire of the early church was
gnosticism, read a book or articles about what that is,
it helps to understand the whole issue.

 2017/8/8 23:43Profile
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re: Are you a liar?

I think most people on here would agree with the premise that if someone is living in habitual, unrepentant and willful sin and claims to be a Christian they are in fact (as John says) a liar and do not have eternal life. That is unless they are of the extreme grace / OSAS position.

However the OP issue that has caused such a reaction is that MoG has defined what is sin by his own convictions and/or church traditions. So can anyone here (apart from MoG) agree with the following from his OP......

You are not a Christian are will are destined for the lake of fire if you..
(a) Don't pay Tithes
(b) Don't 'go to Church' (whatever that means! We are the church, don't 'go there).
(c) Don't invite people to church?!
(d) Drink alcohol (any amount)

Even if your personal convection is in line with the above, I don't know any sound Christians that would accuse others that do the above as destined for hell.

These are just the extreme examples from the OP. The list sounds like something that comes from a manipulative church leadership that wants to control it's people in a cultic way.


_________________
Dave

 2017/8/9 6:28Profile
havok20x
Member



Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 801


 Re:

Sree,

I have come to the conclusion regarding MOST debates about OSAS that the men and women who believe you can lose your salvation would identify people as having lost it when I would identify those people as never having had it in the first place.

We can discuss the symptoms of our beliefs ad nauseum. The root issue is the atonement. Jesus is our propitiation. The definition is thus: "The word propitiation carries the basic idea of appeasement or satisfaction, specifically toward God. Propitiation is a two-part act that involves appeasing the wrath of an offended person and being reconciled to him."


Here is a quote you said:

"I believe you are wrong here. If they were obeying then why did jesus call them workers of inequity?"

They were workers of iniquity because they did evil in the sight of the Lord. They were bad trees with bad fruit. They looked good on the outside, but inside they were dead men's bones. Whitewashed tombs. Bad fruit doesn't necessarily mean rotten. A bad tree carrying bad fruit does indeed grow fruit, but it is unrighteous.

 2017/8/9 7:10Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5585
NC, USA

 Re:

Right on Dave.


_________________
Todd

 2017/8/9 7:12Profile
JFW
Member



Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 1436
Dothan, Alabama

 Re: brother Dave

Yes indeed and Lord have mercy on him!


_________________
Fletcher

 2017/8/9 7:59Profile
savannah
Member



Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2067


 Re: never knew you


Sree says,

"I believe you are wrong here. If they were obeying then why did jesus call them workers of inequity?

They were people who were once saved and had gifts to serve God. But they got carried away by their service. Look all that they said were all service by gifts, like casting devil, prophesy etc. Jesus never denied what they did. No one can come before Jesus to tell lies. Hence what they said is true. But what they ignored is personal walk with God. They were like Pharasees who focused on external testimony but we're dead inside. White washed tombs. Hence Jesus rejected them."

Jesus says,

Matthew 7:21-23 Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will tell me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?' Then I will tell them, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.'

Jesus didn't say the words that Sree is putting/adding to the words Jesus said. He plainly says, "I NEVER knew you..."

 2017/8/9 10:18Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1767


 Re:

Quote:


Jesus didn't say the words that Sree is putting/adding to the words Jesus said. He plainly says, "I NEVER knew you..."




What word did you find me add? Can you please clarify? !!!

What do you think Jesus meant by saying 'I never knew you'? If it is plain not knowing them, then how can Jesus be God if he does not know who his creations are? So the word know here means more than just to identify someone.

Those have to be born again believers who have lacked a fellowship with Jesus. Hence they were rejected. Any other alternate identification of them will actually diminish the divine authority of Jesus. For example if they were mockers who were simply lying then it makes Jesus (during his 2nd coming) a mock-able person before whom anyone can give a false testimony. That is why I reject all those popular teachings on these verses. People just choose the interpretation that fits their theology even if it makes Jesus a powerless guy! Shame on those who hold such views. They love their theology more than Jesus, that is why they are willing to strip him of his powers, to defend their theology.


_________________
Sreeram

 2017/8/9 10:51Profile
Man0fG0d
Member



Joined: 2012/5/27
Posts: 174


 Re:

Hey dave, thanks for commenting.

The Bible agrees with what was listed, as that can all be found in scripture.

A(malachi 3, 1 cor 6:9-10)

B (hebrews 10:25, acts 3:1, acts 16:4-5, 20:7)

C (Luke 14:21-23)

D (1 cor 6:9-10, 1 cor 5:6-11, Mark 15:23)

Do you drink? Since you said any amount. How much before it's considered wrong? Is it okay to tell one lie, kill one person, cheat on my wife one time?

Also. The bible says faith cometh by hearing, hearing by the Word of God. Jesus said man shall not live by bread alone, but by every Word of God.

Please post Scripture with your position.

Thanks for commenting. God bless.


_________________
Elijah

 2017/8/9 10:56Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5585
NC, USA

 Re:

//What do you think Jesus meant by saying 'I never knew you'? If it is plain not knowing them, then how can Jesus be God if he does not know who his creations are? //

Sree- you obviously know that the word "know" can have more than one meaning, right? Adam knew Eve his wife. You bet he did, in more ways than one.

In those verses at issue, Jesus obviously means he never knew them AS BELONGING TO HIM. He may know them as individuals but not as part of his flock.


_________________
Todd

 2017/8/9 11:13Profile
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

Elijah (great name BTW),

If you think any of those scriptures are condemning the things I highlighted as sin, you are misreading the scriptures and reading them in a legalistic way.

If you personally believe God has told you to adhere to them, then for you it would be sin to disobey, but the scriptures do not say this.

I will pick just one example, Tithing. Malachi 3 is OT and addressed to the Levites. The 1 corinthian 6 passage is not teaching tithing, but a collection for the saints in need in Jerusalem. There is no tithing teaching in the NT at all. I know folk who do believe in the principle of tithing, but would never say it is an issue of sin and eternal damnation! BTW if you want to keep the OT law of tithing you need to give at least 30% of your wages.


_________________
Dave

 2017/8/9 11:22Profile





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