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The tongues we have today are not languages. They are gobbledygook. There is no grammatical structure to them, nor is there an extensive vocabulary of thousands of words. The tongues we have today are the same tongues also expressed by Mormons, Muslims, witches etc. They are demonic.
| 2017/8/1 12:22||Profile|
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Did anyone ever watch "The Insanity of God" put out by Open Doors Ministries? If not, it's about Nik Ripken and his wife going out into the mission field. They experience horrible trials, and in the aftermath of those trials, they went to some of the most dangerous places in the world to get this one question answered: Is Jesus worth it? Nik, being a Southern Baptist, saw the power of God working amongst those who are going through intense persecution for the glory of God.
He said he saw miracles taking place...the same ones we read about throughout the Word of God....both Old Covenant and New Covenant. These people were giving glory to God through Jesus Christ. He saw that the gifts of the Spirit are very much active today just as they were in the book of Acts. He saw things he couldn't explain.
I listened to his testimony on Youtube...the title of this message was:
"Believers in Persecution and the Three Non-Negotiables"
If anyone has an opportunity to listen to that message/testimony, please do so. It will soften your heart, and draw you to seek after the will of God no matter what that may look like. Nik states in that testimony, he saw the book of Acts living out before his very eyes.
Why don't we see this on a wider scale here? Perhaps it's pride, unbelief, too much division, arguments, a lack of love.....only the Lord knows the answer to that question. Nik said these believers in other countries were from different denominational backgrounds...they were knitted together in agape love and unity.
| 2017/8/1 13:28|
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Thousands and millions of Christians have also been evangelized through fundamentalists who did not believe in the charismatic movement of today. They went out to the mission fields of the world and gave up their lives for Christ without anyone recording what they did. I heard a few of them speak one time at Moody's counterpart of the prairies of Alberta and believe me, the charismatic movement cannot duplicate what those obscure and humble missionaries accomplished in silence and anonymity.
| 2017/8/1 13:33||Profile|
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I would be very careful in your place with the words... There is a difference between the gift of tongues and praying in tongues. And both come from God.
Yes there are groups, who have a counterfeit - that does not mean though that there is no such thing that comes from God. So to equate "the tongues we have" with Mormons, Muslim etc. is very near to blasphemy.
Sure if you speak about kind of "I invented it myself"-stuff, that would be true. But there is true praying in tongues and true gift of tongues (I shared a testimony on that already) - and that comes from God!
| 2017/8/1 13:45||Profile|
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//They are demonic//
That's a rather outrageous statement.
1 Corinthians 14:2 "For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries. "
Note the apostle says "**NO ONE**" understands him, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.""
If this was talking about actual human language why does Paul say NO ONE understands him and why does he say he speaks mysteries?
I really think you should apologize to all the brethren you have grossly slandered with your statement.
| 2017/8/1 13:48||Profile|
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Speaking only for me, joed2 didn't offend me (he lacks the power) nd it isn't me he should concern himself with if you know Who I mean. He is either from the "sola scriptura via MacArthuria" school or the IFB outfit. I have a lot of sympathy for the latter and zero interest in the former. Whatcha gonna do though?
And, so you can at least be pointed in the right direction, joed2, there is no commonality between the gifts of the Spirit and the so called "charismatics" (a term I depsise because it means nothing). Show me a praying, believing, Spirit-baptized, tongues praying woman warring before the Lord for her family, a similar minded man praying in the Holy Ghost for his church and his neighbor, Spirit filled teens seeking freedom and truth in Christ, and I will show you true pentecost and zero "charismatic".
| 2017/8/1 14:00||Profile|
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Paul addresses division and the disunity of this whole topic in 1 Corinthians 1 - 3. There is a difference between the wisdom of men and the wisdom of God.
As a spirit filled believer I have many friends who I count as brothers in Christ who have not experienced the infilling of the Holy Spirit for these reasons. They do not deny the experience, they are open and teachable and have asked God for all He desires for them, and most importantly they do not attribute the sign gifts of the Holy Spirit to the devil.
What does one call an individual who denies the clear plain teaching of the scriptures, history of the early church, and the signs, wonders, and miracles the Holy Spirit is still doing today and that Jesus Christ Himself said would follow the believer?
Is it self righteousness, a religious spirit, blasphemy, pride, an antichrist spirit? I really don't know the answer.
For one who was saved for nine years without the baptism I NEVER denied what I saw in others as far as the spiritual gifts were concerned. I just remained neutral until a major crisis came in my life that DROVE me further and deeper to God, wanting, desiring, and begging Him to have all that He desired for me.
Once I was filled, my life has never been the same, I have experienced divine healing, witnessed multiple healings, was delivered from demonic oppression, witnessed people delivered from demonic oppression, seen people saved through the power of Holy Spirit anointed preaching, faith quickened, words of wisdom, knowledge, and faith.... His voice became clearer, scripture became clearer, and religious mindsets and error were exposed in my life not to mention the ability to overcome besetting sin I struggled to put to death in the flesh. Most importantly the power and boldness to witness was far more effective and convicting to the hearer.
For clarification none of this makes me great, holy, or special but makes God so and much more.
This one thing I have learned, we as a people will never convince a demonic spirit, antichrist spirit, scoffer, unbelief, or doubt as to the reality of the fact we serve a supernatural God who has NOT changed.
With the amount of simple proof text that has been shared in these threads that a child would gladly receive without question they still choose not to believe.
Even those who self profess they are not cessationists are always posing silly questions as to why this or why that, are challenging scripture. They will say things like, "I am not a cessationist, but....."
As soon as you hear the word but, you can throw everything else that they said prior out the window. Truth is they don't believe. On the one hand they profess to believe but argue and rationalize as to why they shouldn't believe. God says a double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
The 120 in the upper room that obeyed the commandment to wait for the promise of the Holy Spirit were united and of one mind. Jesus is NOT coming back for a divided church, either we will speak the same thing as Paul told the Corinthians or we will be passed over.
1 Corinthians 1:10 KJV Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
As I have said before there is a difference between debate and reasoning. As spirit filled believers we need to be discerning between the two because we will never convince those who are opposing themselves when a spirit of debate is present. Reasoning on the other hand is done in love and is motivated through a gentle spirit because we have a genuine love for them and know our words will be received.
I appreciate the brothers and sisters here who are lovingly, patiently, and kindly ministering the clear truth of the ministry of the Holy Spirit. It is obvious to me as to the indwelling Holy Spirit in them. There is an undeniable unity and bearing of witness in what they say and how they say it.
But here is a word of caution when it comes to those who are relentless in their attack of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, Paul warns,
Romans 16:17-18 KJV Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. (18) For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
Their attacks and argument are not with us personally but with the Godhead, thinking that they can have the Father and Son yet deny the Holy Spirit.
Here are some facts, you will never separate a triune God, you will never rise above your profession of faith, if you let those who have perverted, polluted, prostituted, and used the Holy Spirit for monetary gain or for their own selfish ambition define your perception of the God of the bible you are indeed a man most miserable.
You will never shorten Gods hand that it cannot save, redeem, or deliver.
When it comes to men like John MacArthur who blasphemes the genuine working of the Holy Spirit and attributing all manifestations of the Holy Spirit in sincere obedient Christians lives because of those who abuse the Holy Spirit I cannot give that man any assurance of his self professed salvation.
Jesus said that those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. Apart from an experience of that of the apostle Paul I see no hope of their eyes being opened.
A final admonition from Paul to Timothy,
2 Timothy 2:11-19 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with Him, we shall also live with Him: (12) If we suffer, we shall also reign with Him: if we deny Him, He also will deny us: (13) If we believe not, yet He abideth faithful: He cannot deny Himself. (14) Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. (15) Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. (16) But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. (17) And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; (18) Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. (19) Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are His. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
| 2017/8/1 15:19||Profile|
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Joe: I totally agree that many, many people are born again, discipled, and go on to win others by those who do not believe in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. This is the case because these people are born again and indwelled by the Spirit of God. They are my brothers and sisters in Christ, and praise God for them.
I also agree that there are those who do not have a genuine experience. But the existence of error does not mean that truth does not exist. My great grandfather traveled to Mexico to preach. An interpreter was lined up for him, but as he began to preach, what came out of his mouth was perfectly fluent Spanish and he preached the entire sermon without the need for an interpreter. After he finished preaching he could not communicate with anyone as he did not know any Spanish.
About four or five years ago, the daughter of a good friend of mine traveled to the Dominican Republic on a mission trip with her youth group. While doing street ministry, she was asked to pray for a man. She began to pray in tongues. The interpreter and the man stood with their mouths open in wonder. When she finished praying they told her that she had prayed in perfect Spanish and had prayed for things that the man needed physically that she had absolutely no knowledge of.
Sometimes what we hear that does not seem to sound like a language is in fact a language. There is actually a known language that sounds just like assorted grunts and clicks made with the mouth.
So I think we have to be careful when we lump all tongues today under the category of demonic and when we try to pass judgement based entirely upon what we hear. Sure, there are false religions with demonic manifestation of tongues. I would totally agree with you. But the presence of the false does not make impossible the true. It only announces that there is a true that can be mimicked or faked.
| 2017/8/1 17:41||Profile|
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I was busy and am just coming back to this thread. Hope to read all your posts and respond if necessary.
First, Travis’ post:
“I totally agree that many, many people are born again, discipled, and go on to win others by those who do not believe in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. This is the case because these people are born again ***** and indwelled by the Spirit of God *****. They are my brothers and sisters in Christ, and praise God for them.
“I also agree that there are those who do not have a genuine experience. But the existence of error does not mean that truth does not exist.”
The Holy Spirit is a PERSON, the third Person in the Trinity. If HE indwells us, do we not already have HIM in us to do all HIS work in us? If HE is in us, do we not already have HIM in us to empower us? And would it not be so that He would not be able to work in us and empower us IF we had not known that He is in us OR had not had faith in Him OR had ignored Him OR had “grieved” Him OR “quenched” Him?
If we are in Rom. 8, we are full of the Spirit.
If we are in Rom. 7, we are the dry and parched land.
The way out of Rom. 7 into Rom. 8 is the full working of the CROSS in us.
What exactly is this "genuine experience" and "truth" you mentioned? Do you mean that those who have not had the experience you had are not true and genuine Christians? What is a Christian?
| 2017/8/2 2:06||Profile|
Johannesburg, South Africa
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Since our American brethren are probably sleeping I will jump in here.
By the way, you have made some lovely points in your post.
I think Travis was referring to an earlier post by Joe (Joed ) where he refers to tongues of today as fake / demonic
Quote: "The tongues we have today are not languages. They are gobbledygook. There is no grammatical structure to them, nor is there an extensive vocabulary of thousands of words. The tongues we have today are the same tongues also expressed by Mormons, Muslims, witches etc. They are demonic."
| 2017/8/2 3:16||Profile|