Johannesburg, South Africa
| Re: |
Tongues and interpretation of tongues is right there in the list of gifts so no reason to question its validity. Why have it? Because that is how God willed it.
It works similarly to prophecy and can be judged the same way. Paul said let two or three prophesy and the others examine what is prophesied.
Even if people are concerned about tongues, where are the prophecies in our gatherings? How can it be possible to be filled by the Spirit and never have the desire to prophecy, or testify, in an inspired way. This concerns me greatly.
Can we be filled and controlled by the Spirit and never be moved?
In the OT when Saul came among the prophets the Holy Spirit came upon him and he was changed into another man!
Just as we should not have the gifts without the fruit, we should also not have the fruit but manifest no gifts.
The fruit of love, patience, kindness etc. is certainly not going to bring about deliverance from demons or healing of the sick?
Those from " reformed" or non Pentecostal/ Charismatic backgrounds ( I hate having to use those terms because Christ's church is one) please answer me this...
Do you believe a person can be possessed by demons?
If you do, what will you do for such a person if they come to you for help in their sane moments?
If there are demons, the gift of discerning of spirits is required, and the power of the Spirit is needed to cast them out.
If that gift is required then why not all the others?
Please correct me if I am wrong.
| 2017/7/31 14:11||Profile|
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"""""I read a book on fasting and in it, the writer was asked why when he ministered in other nations there were miraculous healings and not in America. I'm paraphrasing what he said, 'it was because we have health insurance, no one needs God in that manner.'
I'm thinking we have become slaves in Egypt (health care system) and did not even know it. I and others told numerous people since Obamacare came into being, we need to learn to believe the Bible and lay hands on the sick AND EXPECT MIRACLES """"""
Lisa, what was the name of the book you read on fasting? I would love to read it.
To all here, I know the Holy Spirit works in power through all of the gifts the same as He did yesterday, because He doesn't change....we do.. Anything the Holy Spirit does will give all the glory and honor to Jesus and not to man. In America, in many, but not all pentecostal/charasmatic circles, man takes the glory and "thinks" it's the Holy Spirit, when it's not. It becomes nothing more than flashy, fleshly emotion. When the Holy Spirit moves in power, everyone will know....there will be genuine repentance, souls will be saved, lives transformed and restored by the power of God and Jesus will be lifted high. The days of Acts are not just history. Our Lord still moves in power through His precious Spirit....to deny His power is to have a form of godliness. I say this to give a reason for the hope that is within me, but not to argue.
| 2017/7/31 15:24|
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Hi Dave, here are my replies to your points:
1/ "There are some people who would not believe
in the gifts of the Holy Spirit for today even if the dead were raised right in front of them."
Point 1/ Should we really base our doctrinal position of the ministry of the Holy Spirit on a miracle? What about false signs and wonders? Paul said even if an angel was to appear to us with a message, do not believe it if it is contrary to what has already been taught.
Here I talk about faith and the power of God given to the believer, no so much a doctrinal position. Yes, there are false signs and wonders. Satan counterfeits whatever he can.
Signs follow the preaching of the Kingdom of God, they are a demonstration of its power.
The upsetting thing about faith is that it works more in children than in theologians.
Satan can kill, but he cannot raise the dead, because it is outside his domain.
2/ "Nobody who has experienced the baptism with the Holy Spirit would argue like our brother."
Point 2/ Should we base our doctrinal position on subjective experience or on the revealed word of God?
Jesus announced the ministry of the Holy Spirit long before He was given. He spoke much about it but the disciples had no clue what he was talking about. So there was a word of promise, doctrine that preceded the fulfillment. Later on it was experienced by the disciples. I believe much of theology is very practical instruction not only to believe but also to apply and to experience.
We lack much of the experience because in our Christian walk we hardly come to the point were we for example are accused before tribunals and can speak irrefutable words without preparation or drink poisonous drink or lift up serpents.
These words can be very comforting in times of persecution which may be ahead of us.
3/ "Christianity without the power of the Holy Spirit is reduced to a moral framework that brings death to the hearer."
Point 3/ This is really a false representation of people who do not believe in the second blessing or Baptism of the Spirit. I don't know any believers, even the most ardent cessationists ( and I know quite a few) who would not declare they need the power of the Holy Spirit in their life and ministry. They just don't believe in the 'sign gifts' for today (i.e tongues, prophecies, healing miracles). We can disagree with them on these points, but that does not mean they reject the ministry of the Holy Spirit completely.
This is what Jesus accused the Pharisees of on Mat 23:27-36.
These were those who rejected what they did not know.
However, I do acknowledge that there are people like Apollos, who were burning in the Spirit but did not know the baptism of the Holy Spirit. In his case it was ignorance and not rejection. There is a world of difference between the 2. We are not told, but I do believe he later agreed with Aquila and Priscilla, otherwise Paul would not have tried to persuade him to come to Corinth again.
I really appreciate what Aquila and Priscilla did. Apollos was mighty in the scriptures and burning in the Spirit. He must have been a living OT concordance, enzyclopedia and commentary in one, but he was not big-headed but humble enough to accept Aquila and Priscilla's exposition - and subsequently experienced the baptism with the Holy Spirit.
It is sad that much of Christendom fall into either the cessationist or sensationalist camp, or they believe in the work and ministry of the Spirit but nearly never actually experience it.
I long for the day when the church will come to embrace both Word and Spirit, as Smith Wigglesworth prophesied and in 1947 and David Pawson elaborated in his book "Word and Spirit together"
| 2017/7/31 15:54||Profile|
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It takes a lot of time to understand, especially when you
learned it the wrong way, some things you can read 5 times
without ever understanding what he said exactly,
until finally suddenly you can see the clarity of it,
here in the words of Harry Ironside from his chapter:
The Baptism of the Holy Spirit and of Fire
"......in Paul's epistle to the Corinthians
where it is shown to be something past, in which all who were
believers had shared: "By one Spirit are we all baptized into one body,
whether we be Jews or Gentiles" (1 Cor. 12:13), and the epistle is
addressed to "all that in every place, call upon the name of Jesus Christ
our Lord" (1 Cor. 1:2). Many of them were weak Christians, many
were carnal, many failed to enter into much of the glorious truth
pertaining to the New Dispensation, but all were baptized by the one
Spirit into the one body of Christ"
"....if [you are] not already numbered among those baptized by the
Holy Spirit into the body of Christ, you may now receive the Spirit
by the hearing of faith, as did the Galatians of old when they believed
the things spoken by Paul (Gal. 3:2,3)."
So he says the baptism of the church by the Holy Spirit is past tense,
one baptism for all believers
We now Receive The Spirit by hearing of God's word
by faith and not by acts of the law [or any religious activity]
Once you can see that you understand why there is no further
mention of a second blessing or baptism of the Holy Spirit
Again I would say that the context of 1 Cor. 12:13 has nothing to do with the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The context of the verse is that we all had our entrance into the body on Christ by the same spirit, the holy spirit of God, by which we are born again, and because of this we cannot divide ourselves and one say to another that their function is not necessary to the proper health and function of the body of Christ.
You have made some pretty strong and absolute statements that seem to me to indicate that you believe very strongly that anyone who believes in the baptism of the Holy Spirit has mislearned and misunderstands scripture. I realize that this is a doctrine that you have no doubt been taught very strongly in and that you are convinced of. But may I share this perspective.
I was born again at 8 years old. My conversion was so real in my spirit that I can, 38 years later, completely relive the moment in my mind. The weight of sin removed and the knowledge of righteousness that washed over me was powerful and undeniable.
At 18 I was baptized in the Holy Spirit, with the same absolute witness of God. I not only spoke in other tongues as happened in 3 out of 4 recorded instances in the new testament, but I sang in tongues as Paul says he did in 1 Corinthians. Another person who received the baptism of the Holy Spirit the same evening also sang with me. Two people sining a song in another tongue in perfect unison, without missing a single word or a single note. It was totally supernatural.
The baptism of the Holy Spirit has been a source of power in my life ever since. I have not only seen many men and women used by God in the gifts of the Spirit, but God has used me in words of wisdom and knowledge, in prophecy, and in a gift of healing.
I say all that to say this. If the baptism of the Holy Spirit as in Acts 2 and other places in Acts was only for the inception of the church, and does not now happen, then you must conclude that my experience is not real. And, if not real, then you must conclude that it is either totally of my flesh or that it is demonic in origin. However I can tell you, as one who has experienced for myself, that it is neither of these.
Please do not misunderstand what I am saying. I am in no way trying to be contentious or to argue with you. I am simply trying to say that for one who has experienced this wonderful induing of power from God, there is no way that person can be convinced otherwise by man's wisdom. I am completely sure, based on what I read of history, that Ironside was a wonderful man of God and was a great teacher. If I could have known him, I am sure I would have counted it an honor.
However, I would have to say that He is mistaken in this case. I have experienced and continue to experience as a present day reality that which he claims to be past tense if indeed the baptism of the Holy Spirit is what he talks about.
The best way I have to explain it is this. When I am born again, I do receive the Holy Spirit of God as an abiding presence. However through the Baptism of the Holy Spirit I am indued with power by the Holy Spirit. Same Spirit. Different type of or if you will level of communion with that same Spirit.
By the way, I would also say this. The book of Acts covers the history of the first 70 years or so of church history. There are great numbers of historical church writings from then until now that replete with mention of the second blessing or the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The epistles were all written during the time period covered by the historical book of Acts. In 1 Corinthians especially there is extensive mention of and teaching on the baptism of the Holy Spirit (see chapters 2, and 12-14).
| 2017/7/31 17:57||Profile|
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Those who believe in the 'gifts of the Spirit' (and I count myself in that) cannot see they are just as dogmatic in their views and interpretation of scriptures to support their practice as those of the opposite opinion. But I guess we are all too defensive to want to consider if we have got it right.
William, concerning tongues and interpretation, if you read Paul's argument in 1 Corinthians he clearly says that we should desire to prophecy rather than speak an unknown tongue, because prophecy will be understood by all, but tongues will not. This obviously means that the prophecy will be in the language of the congregation. They should only speak in a tongue publicly if there is someone who can interpret. How would you know if there was someone to interpret? I submit only if you know that there is someone there of that language! What we have today is not interpretation, but someone who at best may have a word of prophecy that has nothing to do with what may have been uttered in tongues. Can I prove that, no, but neither can you that it is an actual interpretation.
Paul also says that in the church it is the least gift, but why do pentecostal/Charismatics act as if it is the most sought after gift, in direct contradiction to what Paul wrote?
As I said there is so much that is taken as 'gospel' that is nothing more that teachings of men. I will give you just one example. Paul in 1 Corinthians 14:4 says "He who speaks in an unknown tongue edifies (builds up) himself, but he who prophecies edifies (builds up) the church".
Many teachers use this to tell us that the purpose of tongues is to build ourselves up! When in fact it is clear in the context of this whole discourse by Paul that he is actually rebuking them for being selfish in exalting themselves by tongue talking, rather than lifting up the church by prophecy.
| 2017/7/31 18:13||Profile|
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•••The best way I have to explain it is this. When I am born again, I do receive the Holy Spirit of God as an abiding presence. However through the Baptism of the Holy Spirit I am indued with power by the Holy Spirit. Same Spirit. Different type of or if you will level of communion with that same Spirit.
By the way, I would also say this. The book of Acts covers the history of the first 70 years or so of church history. There are great numbers of historical church writings from then until now that replete with mention of the second blessing or the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The epistles were all written during the time period covered by the historical book of Acts. In 1 Corinthians especially there is extensive mention of and teaching on the baptism of the Holy Spirit (see chapters 2, and 12-14).•••
Travis you hit the nail on the head. That is the question I've been asking in the forum. How did the first century church get along without a New Testament? Let alone a completed Bible? And for that matter how did the first century Christians the first sixty or seventy years accomplished what they did without a completed Bible?
We see in Romans 15 at Paul's work was already completed at the eastern end of the Mediterranean. He writes that now there is no more work for me in these regions he was looking toward going to Spain. So again. How did the first century Church accomplish what they did without a completed Bible.
The answer is found in Acts 1:8,
••• but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you will be my witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.•••
It was through the baptism of the Holy Spirit at the first century church accomplished what they did. And I add it was done without a completed Bible or the theology we have today. There was no Masters Bible Seminary in the first century.
The question is is God still working the same way as he did in the book of Acts in the first century. I have read reports and heard stories of incredible miracles that God is doing among our persecuted brethren in restricted nations. I have had persecuted pastors and field workers on my prayer call who have perform such miracles. We're at a post these stories in the forum. There would be those who would say these stories are not true.
I think Paul's admonition in Acts 13:41 would apply today,
Behold you scoffers, and marvel, and perish;
For I am accomplishing a work in your days,
A work which you will never believe, though someone should describe it to you.
God is doing an incredible work among our persecuted brothers and sisters. The book of Acts is certainly in operation in the restricted nations.
But there will be those who scoff at the notion that the Holy Spirit works in such marvelous ways. Because some of those who scoff. This is one of the reasons that we are not seeing an incredible move of the spirit in our nation today. It has been said that God's controversy with the church in the west is unbelief. It is easy to believe the reams of systematic theology. But much more difficult to believe in the Simplicity of the spirit that he does move in signs and wonders today.
Thus it will be our persecuted brothers and sisters who lack the theology of Calvin. But they will move in the power of the first century church. While we in the west are dead because we have the letter of the law. Our persecuted brothers and sisters will have the power and the life of the Spirit.
At this point all I can say is may God have mercy on us in the America.
Simply my thoughts.
| 2017/7/31 19:07|
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Blaine: I agree with you but would add this. Jesus is revealed throughout the old testament. Jesus Christ and the good news of His sacrifice for our sins is witnessed by the law and the prophets. The Holy Spirit revealed this to the Apostles and they then preached it to the nations. It is absolutely amazing how much old testament scripture is quoted by Paul, Peter, and John in their letters. So they did have the written word of God, but it took the power of the Holy Spirit to reveal that word.
The same is true today. The closer my relationship with God becomes and the deeper my communion with the Holy Spirit, the more revelation of His word I receive. (Just so no one misunderstands me, when I use the word revelation, I am NOT talking about some new understanding of scripture. I am talking about the word moving from mere intellectual understanding and coming to life in my spirit. In other words, I understand the word of God in a way that bursts forth with life and causes change and movement in my heart and life.) It is the Holy Spirit that brings understanding and revelation of the word of God. Paul bears this out very clearly in 1 Corinthians 2.
| 2017/7/31 21:05||Profile|
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What made the Galatians turn back from the Holy Spirit?
They couldnt find rest, their missing faith made them look
for "what else could we do to get a higher experience"
Pentecostals are in the same boat. They assume that Christians
for the first 1900 years did mostly not have "the baptism of
the Holy Spirit" - but now in the end of times this is going to
be corrected and restored. Mostly ignoring the NT that
the exact opposite happens just before the AC takes stage.
You can see the progression of doctrinal error when you study
church history, denominations , movements, single people
movements started by 1 one man like mormons, watchtower,
azusa etc. before 1900 and after, true Christianity progressively
gets replaced by self-centered religion and occultic influence
rises steadly over time.
The charismatic movement is a move of the endtimes, to
unite with tongue speaking catholics and tongue speaking
mormons etc.all by the "same spirit" - and unfortunately
discernment is not available in general. If it were, 100's
of mason pastors and satanists in the pulpit would be
regognized as what they are, and fired. Instead they
are the most "successful" in America, and almost nobody
thinks of them as being something other than they claim
to be. How ridiculous for someone that hasn't lost the
ability to think soberly.
As it is, the typical Charismatic has no way of knowing
the difference between a pastor that cares about the
flock and someone that just wants to impart a spirit
someone brought back from a conference, and then did
lay hands on local members, it's traceable where it all
came from. Study it!
But all the kids cry:
"But I want my baptism of the Holy Spirit and my gifts!"
Receive the Spirit by hearing of faith - of the truth you
once rejected by listening to false teachers, that also
imparted spirits they brought back from Toronto or
Lakeland and other places.
Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss
of course someone other than God then is legally
permitted to fill the void, since your lack of faith
in God's actual provision left you unimpressed
and restless, so you moved on and got "what you
wanted", although its something that will set you
up for, or is already the strong delusion, said to
be undetectable by the ones that are under it.
One of the US pentecostals I really liked for a very long
time, Henry Gruver was in a broadcast a few months
ago. I know him as a very sincere man that has a whole
life of experience behind him. He stated when asked
about the future of America that he agreed with what
the guiding spirits of George Washington told the
first president. Wow! One needs to study that subject
to find out that Washington's biograph writer made
a Christian out of him posthum, in reality he wasn't,
he was a freemason and he was listening to spirits.
And this pentecostal of long standing and mighty
works and wonders agrees with them - I could
not believe my ears.
This man prefers "what spirits say" + his own visions,
over of the Bible that puts the same events he saw
into a completely different picture with completely
different ending. America has sold out to the occult
form the very beginning. When even the believers
agree more with seducing spirits than the Spirit
of God then they are indeed in unsually severe trouble.
| 2017/7/31 23:05||Profile|
Johannesburg, South Africa
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You use this phrase a lot "Receive the Spirit by hearing of faith"
What is your understanding of it?
| 2017/8/1 3:12||Profile|
This world is not my home anymore.
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The book I was talking about is, "The Hidden Power of Prayer and Fasting" by Mahesh Chavda
And another excellent book on the subject is:
Fasting for Spiritual Breakthrough: A Practical Guide to Nine Biblical Fasts by Elmer L. Towns
You wrote: "The days of Acts are not just history. Our Lord still moves in power through His precious Spirit....to deny His power is to have a form of godliness."
I totally agree with you! I look and pray for God's people to rise up and walk in HIS power (whatever His power is, believe it and walk in it!)!
| 2017/8/1 8:28||Profile|