Poster | Thread | BranchinVINE Member
Joined: 2016/6/15 Posts: 1268 Australia
| Re: sree | | Hi all,
I am a SISTER!!
_________________ Jade
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| 2017/7/30 1:47 | Profile | a-servant Member
Joined: 2008/5/3 Posts: 435
| Re: | | Re: "If you will look carefully, this is exactly what 1 Cor. 12:13 is saying. If you will study scripture carefully, there are multiple types of baptisms."
None of it is of any significance for us today, Paul's work can stand alone, his gospel is complete, and you will miss nothing. We don't live 2000 years ago and are not Jews under the law in the transition to believe in Jesus and unto the mystery of the gospel.
Here is something by Alfred H. Pohl about why some differ with Paul's teaching and value their experiences higher than him:
Formulating doctrine in the Book of Acts
In studying the Book of Acts, the careful student must recognize several important characteristics of the book. Unless he does, he can come up with strange, peculiar and erroneous doctrines, which in fact, many have done.
Consider with me the following four characteristics of Acts which I have called, “Keys to a Proper Understanding of the Book of Acts”:
1. That it is, primarily, a historical book, not a doctrinal book as the epistles are.
2. That it is a book recording the transition from the Old Testament to the New Testament, from the Age of Law to the Age of Grace-the Church Age.
3. That it is a book recording the beginnings of the Church.
4. That it is a book that primarily centres around Christ’s apostles—it is indeed “The Acts of the Apostles.”
Key 1: Acts is primarily, a HISTORICAL BOOK, not a doctrinal book.
On the other hand, the Epistles were written primarily to reveal and teach church doctrine. It is dangerous, then, to begin to formulate our doctrines on the historical happenings in Acts
a) because there is a very real possibility that we will misinterpret the recorded happenings. Obviously, just that is being done, for we do have so many different interpretations, all from the same Book of Acts;
b) because Acts is a book of transition and church beginnings, the full revelation of church truth is not yet there recorded or revealed. That is given to us in the Epistles.
In the Epistles we have the “full bloom” of New Testament revelation or church truth. That that is so, may I remind you of Paul’s oft-repeated statement, “Behold, I show you a mystery.” What did he mean by “mystery?” Obviously, it was a New Testament truth not formerly revealed, even in Acts, but was being revealed in the Epistles. See 1 Corinthians 15:51-52; Ephesians 3:1-6, etc. We must be very careful, then, to look at events in the book of Acts in and with the full light of the Epistles to guide us in formulating our doctrines.
Key 2: Acts is a record of the TRANSITION from the Old Testament to the New Testament, from the Age of Law to the Age of Grace, the Church age.
Unless this fact is recognized we invite the possibility of wrong interpretation. When I teach the book of Acts, I usually suggest seven reasons why it must be considered a book of transition. May I just point out two of these reasons here briefly by asking these questions:
First, should a believer in the Church age be baptized before or after receiving the Holy Spirit? In Acts 8:12-17 and in Acts 19:5-6 we read that they were baptized before they received the Holy Spirit. But in Acts 10:44-48 they were baptized after. Both practices are recorded in Acts. Which is right?
Secondly, should a believer be baptized in water more than once? In Acts 19:3-5 we read that the twelve men at Ephesus who had already been baptized were re-baptized under Paul’s ministry. Why? Is this to be the normal practice throughout the Church age? Or must we here recognize a transition—of Old Testament believers coming into the Church age, into the Church? As we read Acts 19:1-7 carefully, we discover that these twelve men were disciples of John the Baptist coming in transition into the church. Paul recognized the transition, or else, why did he baptize them again? Was it not because he recognized that their first baptism in water was not a valid baptism for believers in the Church age, for “Christians?”
Key 3: Acts is a record of the Church’s BEGINNINGS.
Consider this: First, God was introducing a new plan and program, and forming a new body, the Church, which did not exist in the Old Testament but had its beginnings in Acts.
What happened at Pentecost (Acts 2), Samaria (Acts 8), Caesarea (Acts 10) and Ephesus (Acts 19), is not an advance in the old body, that is, the body of Old Testament believers, but, rather, is the beginning of the new Body, the Church.
Secondly, inaugural events usually are unique, onetime events not necessarily repeated thereafter. Just as at the beginning of the Age of Law at Mount Sinai (Ex. 19:16-18), there were certain unusual events which were not repeated, so we can expect that certain unique and unusual events which occurred at the beginning of the Church age, were not meant for duplication throughout the entire Church age.
Thirdly, events that occurred at the inauguration of the Church do not necessarily have to be adopted as the permanent pattern for the Holy Spirit’s ministry throughout the entire Church age.
Key 4: Acts is a book that primarily centres around Christ’s APOSTLES.
Note the title, “The Acts of the Apostles.” In it the Holy Spirit describes the prominence, the importance, and the authority of these men who were specially chosen by the Lord to personally represent Him in the completion of the laying of the foundation of the church. This is clearly expressed in Ephesians 2:20: “And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone.”
The Lord Jesus had begun the foundation of the Church, but left the completion of that task to these chosen men to whom He gave, not only great responsibility, but also great authority and power.
To the apostles, and to those whom they authorized, were given credentials, attesting signs, the very attesting signs that Christ Himself had, to enable them to complete the Church’s foundation, which, of course, relates to its beginning. That is what Paul is speaking about in 2 Corinthians 12:12: “Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.” See also Hebrews 2:3-4.
How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
QUESTION: If every Christian could perform “signs, wonders, mighty deeds,” then where or what are the “signs of an apostle” that Paul is speaking about? Therefore consider: special sign credentials were given to the apostles for the laying of the church’s foundation. These “signs, wonders, mighty deeds” were meant for the church’s beginnings or inauguration and not meant to be the normal pattern throughout the entire church age. Yet many are endeavouring to duplicate these things today, the things that belonged to the apostles and the church’s beginnings.
In concluding this section, may I repeat that we must be careful about formulating our doctrines in Acts because it is a historical book and not primarily a book of doctrine. We must recognize it’s transitional character and also that it is the record of the church’s beginnings as God used His specially chosen and empowered apostles to finish the foundation of the church. We should, therefore, understand the events recorded in Acts in the light of the “full-bloom” of divine revelation as given to us in the doctrinal epistles.
source: 17 Reasons Why I Left The Tongues Movement by Alfred H. Pohl
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| 2017/7/30 4:12 | Profile |
| Re: Sooo where us the lower??? | | Acts 1:6-8
•••So when they came together, they asked Him, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?”
Jesus replied, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by His own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you, and you will be My witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."•••
I think this answers my question why the church, particularly in North America, has no spiritual power. It was all a transition.
That still begs the question why the persecuted church in restricted nations operates in Acts 1:8 power. One brother who has a persecuted ministry in a restricted nation, says we step outside our door and see the book of Acts in operation.
I guess this brother and others like him who minister in hostile nations did not realize that the book of Acts is simply a transition.
Bro Blaine
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| 2017/7/30 7:34 | | narrowpath Member
Joined: 2005/1/9 Posts: 1522 Germany NRW
| Re: | | There are some people who would not believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit for today even if the dead were raised right in front of them.
Nobody who has experienced the baptism with the Holy Spirit would argue like our brother.
Christianity without the power of the Holy Spirit is reduced to a moral framework that brings death to the hearer.
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| 2017/7/30 10:01 | Profile | a-servant Member
Joined: 2008/5/3 Posts: 435
| Re: | | It takes a lot of time to understand, especially when you learned it the wrong way, some things you can read 5 times without ever understanding what he said exactly, until finally suddenly you can see the clarity of it, here in the words of Harry Ironside from his chapter:
The Baptism of the Holy Spirit and of Fire
"......in Paul's epistle to the Corinthians where it is shown to be something past, in which all who were believers had shared: "By one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles" (1 Cor. 12:13), and the epistle is addressed to "all that in every place, call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord" (1 Cor. 1:2). Many of them were weak Christians, many were carnal, many failed to enter into much of the glorious truth pertaining to the New Dispensation, but all were baptized by the one Spirit into the one body of Christ"
"....if [you are] not already numbered among those baptized by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ, you may now receive the Spirit by the hearing of faith, as did the Galatians of old when they believed the things spoken by Paul (Gal. 3:2,3)."
So he says the baptism of the church by the Holy Spirit is past tense, one baptism for all believers
We now Receive The Spirit by hearing of God's word by faith and not by acts of the law [or any religious activity]
Once you can see that you understand why there is no further mention of a second blessing or baptism of the Holy Spirit
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| 2017/7/31 6:41 | Profile | Heydave Member
Joined: 2008/4/12 Posts: 1306 Hampshire, UK
| Re: Norrowpath | | NP, I'm not a cessationist and I am not endorsing the article that A-servant posted. I think I have a similar church experience as you in being part of 'bible centred' charismatic leaning churches for many years. However I do question much of what has been taught and accepted in these circles. I know the arguments and scriptures used to support Charismatic position and I also know many of them do not stand up to correct biblical interpretation.
I just want to question the statements you posted to think are they valid?
You said: 1/ "There are some people who would not believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit for today even if the dead were raised right in front of them."
2/ "Nobody who has experienced the baptism with the Holy Spirit would argue like our brother."
3/ "Christianity without the power of the Holy Spirit is reduced to a moral framework that brings death to the hearer."
Point 1/ Should we really base our doctrinal position of the ministry of the Holy Spirit on a miracle? What about false signs and wonders? Paul said even if an angel was to appear to us with a message, do not believe it if it is contrary to what has already been taught.
Point 2/ Should we base our doctrinal position on subjective experience or on the revealed word of God?
Point 3/ This is really a false representation of people who do not believe in the second blessing or Baptism of the Spirit. I don't know any believers, even the most ardent cessationists ( and I know quite a few) who would not declare they need the power of the Holy Spirit in their life and ministry. They just don't believe in the 'sign gifts' for today (i.e tongues, prophecies, healing miracles). We can disagree with them on these points, but that does not mean they reject the ministry of the Holy Spirit completely.
Now having said all that, I do think the cessationists are also twisting scriptures to validate their position. Somewhere between the two extremes of cessationism and 'second blessing' folk there is a truth that we need to get from scripture. I tend to lean toward the view that the filling and empowering of the Spirit is distinct from the indwelling abiding ministry of the Spirit and necessary for all believers and that the gifts given are still for the church today, as and when the Holy Spirit chooses to give them for a particular time/place as the need arises.
I don't believe there is a second blessing category of Christians, but a second, third, fourth, and infinitum and that it is available for all to partake in if we yield ourselves to the LORD. There are multitudes who claim to have the 'Baptism/second blessing' that are not at all full of the Holy Spirit..this is a big problem in the church today and needs to be faced. It is a direct result of wrong theology. _________________ Dave
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| 2017/7/31 7:29 | Profile | StirItUp Member
Joined: 2016/6/4 Posts: 949 Johannesburg, South Africa
| Re: | | Bro Dave,
I understand that you are trying to find the perfect balance and the correct scriptural interpretation and I agree with you that we should stand against excesses and for biblical truth.
Whether we believe we received the Holy Spirit at conversion or later is not as important as that we have received Him, and are being filled every day and depending on Him in all we do, including ministry. But this must include everything the Holy Spirit can and wants to do in and through His people. Surely a miraculous supernatural Spirit is going to produce supernatural miraculous results? Not weirdness...
One cannot help but notice the different quality even in preaching between those who are "Spirit filled" and those who deny that signs and wonders are for today.
It is great to emphasize the fruit of the Spirit and yes, character is very important in our Christian witness, but so is the Power of God in demonstration. Is the Holy Spirit divided?
To Timothy Paul said:" for you have not received a spirit of timidity but of Power, Love AND a sound mind (self control)" Compare that to 1 Corinthians 12,13 and 14. Power. Love and Self control
I Thessalonians 5 verse 19 to 21:" Do not extinguish (quench) the Spirit. Do not despise prophecies, but examine all things and hold fast to what is good"
Seems to me that tongues and interpretation, prophecies and all the gifts the Holy Spirit brings with Himself was intended to be a part of "normal" church body life.
Paul said to the Corinthians....I speak with tongues more than you all.... He wasn't speaking about preaching to a foreign people in a foreign language, was he? No, he was speaking of the personal prayer language/ languages the Holy Spirit will give to those who trust Him for it.
Those who hold "Strange Fire" conferences would do better to hold "No Fire" conferences and have days of repentance for grieving and quenching this precious gift of God to us, His Holy Spirit.
Blessings,
_________________ William
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| 2017/7/31 9:21 | Profile | Heydave Member
Joined: 2008/4/12 Posts: 1306 Hampshire, UK
| Re: | | Bro William,
Thanks for your reply. I think this in a worthwhile topic to discuss and be open about. I'm certainly not in the mind to argue (nor I sense you), but want to be open to think about these things more carefully. I think there is far too much misrepresentation from both sides on this issue. The cessationists look on the 'baptism of the Spirit' guys as all cut from the Benny Hinn/Ken Copeland cloth and the the Baptism guys consider all the Cessationist to be devoid of the Spirit and dry as old bones. Both are unfair assumptions. __________________________________________________________ You said: "Whether we believe we received the Holy Spirit at conversion or later is not as important as that we have received Him, and are being filled every day and depending on Him in all we do, including ministry." ---------------------------------------------------------- Although I agree with you on this, when you say "..important as that we have received Him (the Holy Spirit)", well if someone is born again of the Spirit they have received Him, otherwise they do not belong to Christ (Romans 8). It's not have we received the Holy Spirit, but are we 'filled' with the Spirit. The inference in your statement is that the cessationist folk have not received the Spirit, which cannot be true is they are truely born again.
__________________________________________________________ You said: "Seems to me that tongues and interpretation, prophecies and all the gifts the Holy Spirit brings with Himself was intended to be a part of "normal" church body life." ----------------------------------------------------------- This 'tongues and interpretation' has a whole lot of Charismatic/Pentecostal 'traditions' that I think do not stand up to scriptural or reasonable logic. I'm speaking as someone who has exercised the gift of tongues. generally it goes like this. Someone speaks out in an unknown tongue, then another interprets said 'tongue, normally as a prophetic word. Now how do we really know if the is really the correct interpretation?? Hardly ever will it be questioned. Plus why have a prophecy in a language we don't know, just for it to be supposedly interpreted. Why not just have a prophecy in the language of the people, which is what Paul tell us to do in 1 Corinthians. Thirdly Paul says when we speak in 'tongues' we "speak to God and not man", so it cannot be a prophecy according to this. As I said, too many Pentecostal traditions, almost as bad as the cessationist with their 'traditions'.
___________________________________________________________ You said: "Those who hold "Strange Fire" conferences would do better to hold "No Fire" conferences and have days of repentance for grieving and quenching this precious gift of God to us, His Holy Spirit." ----------------------------------------------------------- I agree with your sentiments about the wisdom and content of such conferences. But it must be said that the vast majority (and largest churches) in the Charismatic movement promoting the 'gifts of the Spirit' are on the crazy end and are operating in 'strange fire' and this does need exposing (we all know the ones that folk are flocking to) and it is this that the likes of MacArthur are aiming at. The problem is, as a cessationist he labels all those who operate in the spiritual gifts as the same, even his own associated people such as John Piper and Tim Conway.
_________________ Dave
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| 2017/7/31 11:28 | Profile | TMK Member
Joined: 2012/2/8 Posts: 6650 NC, USA
| Re: | | I am going to get grilled for this but I think Paul had a "slip of then pen" or more likely transcribers did, at 1 Cor 14:22 based on reasoning given by Dave which I agree with. It seems the thought in that verse should be reversed based on what Paul wrote earlier in Ch 14 _________________ Todd
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| 2017/7/31 11:55 | Profile | Lysa Member
Joined: 2008/10/25 Posts: 3699 East TN for now!
| Re: | | Quote:
by bearmaster That still begs the question why the persecuted church in restricted nations operates in Acts 1:8 power. One brother who has a persecuted ministry in a restricted nation, says we step outside our door and see the book of Acts in operation.
Bear,
I read a book on fasting and in it, the writer was asked why when he ministered in other nations there were miraculous healings and not in America. I'm paraphrasing what he said, 'it was because we have health insurance, no one needs God in that manner.'
I'm thinking we have become slaves in Egypt (health care system) and did not even know it. I and others told numerous people since Obamacare came into being, we need to learn to believe the Bible and lay hands on the sick AND EXPECT MIRACLES
Health care $$$ is taking precedent over how much life will they get out of the care. It's sad but I believe this is happening for a reason... to get people to cry out to God.
Gifts 4, 5 and 6 are the gift of faith, gifts of healings and the working of miracles. These gifts are for the taking if one wants to go boldly to the throne of grace!!
Will everyone be healed that we lay hands on? No, but we can't let that stop us from praying in faith believing and in the name of Jesus and letting Him heal who He wants!
God is good, Lisa _________________ Lisa
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| 2017/7/31 13:06 | Profile |
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