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BranchinVINE
Member



Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 739
Australia

 Re: sree


Hi all,

I am a SISTER!!


_________________
Jade

 2017/7/30 1:47Profile
a-servant
Member



Joined: 2008/5/3
Posts: 435


 Re:

Re: "If you will look carefully, this is exactly what 1 Cor. 12:13 is saying.
If you will study scripture carefully, there are multiple types of baptisms."

None of it is of any significance for us today, Paul's work can stand
alone, his gospel is complete, and you will miss nothing.
We don't live 2000 years ago and are not Jews under the law in the
transition to believe in Jesus and unto the mystery of the gospel.

Here is something by Alfred H. Pohl about why some differ
with Paul's teaching and value their experiences higher than him:


Formulating doctrine in the Book of Acts

In studying the Book of Acts, the careful student must
recognize several important characteristics of the book.
Unless he does, he can come up with strange, peculiar and
erroneous doctrines, which in fact, many have done.

Consider with me the following four characteristics of Acts
which I have called, “Keys to a Proper Understanding of
the Book of Acts”:

1. That it is, primarily, a historical book, not a doctrinal
book as the epistles are.

2. That it is a book recording the transition from the Old
Testament to the New Testament, from the Age of Law
to the Age of Grace-the Church Age.

3. That it is a book recording the beginnings of the Church.

4. That it is a book that primarily centres around Christ’s
apostles—it is indeed “The Acts of the Apostles.”


Key 1: Acts is primarily, a HISTORICAL BOOK, not a
doctrinal book.

On the other hand, the Epistles were written primarily to
reveal and teach church doctrine. It is dangerous, then, to
begin to formulate our doctrines on the historical happenings
in Acts

a) because there is a very real possibility that we will
misinterpret the recorded happenings. Obviously, just that is
being done, for we do have so many different interpretations,
all from the same Book of Acts;

b) because Acts is a book of transition and church
beginnings, the full revelation of church truth is not yet there
recorded or revealed. That is given to us in the Epistles.

In the Epistles we have the “full bloom” of New Testament
revelation or church truth. That that is so, may I remind you
of Paul’s oft-repeated statement, “Behold, I show you a
mystery.” What did he mean by “mystery?” Obviously, it
was a New Testament truth not formerly revealed, even in
Acts, but was being revealed in the Epistles. See 1
Corinthians 15:51-52; Ephesians 3:1-6, etc. We must be very
careful, then, to look at events in the book of Acts in and
with the full light of the Epistles to guide us in formulating
our doctrines.

Key 2: Acts is a record of the TRANSITION from the
Old Testament to the New Testament, from the Age of
Law to the Age of Grace, the Church age.

Unless this fact is recognized we invite the possibility of
wrong interpretation. When I teach the book of Acts, I
usually suggest seven reasons why it must be considered a
book of transition. May I just point out two of these reasons
here briefly by asking these questions:

First, should a believer in the Church age be baptized
before or after receiving the Holy Spirit? In Acts 8:12-17 and
in Acts 19:5-6 we read that they were baptized before they
received the Holy Spirit. But in Acts 10:44-48 they were
baptized after. Both practices are recorded in Acts. Which is
right?

Secondly, should a believer be baptized in water more than
once? In Acts 19:3-5 we read that the twelve men at Ephesus
who had already been baptized were re-baptized under Paul’s
ministry. Why? Is this to be the normal practice throughout
the Church age? Or must we here recognize a transition—of
Old Testament believers coming into the Church age, into the
Church? As we read Acts 19:1-7 carefully, we discover that
these twelve men were disciples of John the Baptist coming
in transition into the church. Paul recognized the transition,
or else, why did he baptize them again? Was it not because
he recognized that their first baptism in water was not a valid
baptism for believers in the Church age, for “Christians?”

Key 3: Acts is a record of the Church’s BEGINNINGS.

Consider this: First, God was introducing a new plan and
program, and forming a new body, the Church, which did not
exist in the Old Testament but had its beginnings in Acts.

What happened at Pentecost (Acts 2), Samaria (Acts 8),
Caesarea (Acts 10) and Ephesus (Acts 19), is not an advance
in the old body, that is, the body of Old Testament believers,
but, rather, is the beginning of the new Body, the Church.

Secondly, inaugural events usually are unique, onetime
events not necessarily repeated thereafter. Just as at the
beginning of the Age of Law at Mount Sinai (Ex. 19:16-18),
there were certain unusual events which were not repeated,
so we can expect that certain unique and unusual events
which occurred at the beginning of the Church age, were not
meant for duplication throughout the entire Church age.

Thirdly, events that occurred at the inauguration of the
Church do not necessarily have to be adopted as the
permanent pattern for the Holy Spirit’s ministry throughout
the entire Church age.

Key 4: Acts is a book that primarily centres around
Christ’s APOSTLES.

Note the title, “The Acts of the Apostles.” In it the Holy
Spirit describes the prominence, the importance, and the
authority of these men who were specially chosen by the
Lord to personally represent Him in the completion of the
laying of the foundation of the church. This is clearly
expressed in Ephesians 2:20: “And are built upon the
foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself
being the chief corner stone.”

The Lord Jesus had begun the foundation of the Church,
but left the completion of that task to these chosen men to
whom He gave, not only great responsibility, but also great
authority and power.

To the apostles, and to those whom they authorized, were
given credentials, attesting signs, the very attesting signs that
Christ Himself had, to enable them to complete the Church’s
foundation, which, of course, relates to its beginning. That is
what Paul is speaking about in 2 Corinthians 12:12: “Truly
the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all
patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.”
See also Hebrews 2:3-4.

How shall we escape, if we neglect so great
salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by
the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that
heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with
signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and
gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

QUESTION: If every Christian could perform “signs,
wonders, mighty deeds,” then where or what are the “signs
of an apostle” that Paul is speaking about? Therefore
consider: special sign credentials were given to the apostles
for the laying of the church’s foundation. These “signs,
wonders, mighty deeds” were meant for the church’s
beginnings or inauguration and not meant to be the normal
pattern throughout the entire church age. Yet many are
endeavouring to duplicate these things today, the things that
belonged to the apostles and the church’s beginnings.

In concluding this section, may I repeat that we must be
careful about formulating our doctrines in Acts because it is
a historical book and not primarily a book of doctrine. We
must recognize it’s transitional character and also that it is
the record of the church’s beginnings as God used His
specially chosen and empowered apostles to finish the
foundation of the church. We should, therefore, understand
the events recorded in Acts in the light of the “full-bloom” of
divine revelation as given to us in the doctrinal epistles.

source: 17 Reasons Why I Left The Tongues Movement
by Alfred H. Pohl

 2017/7/30 4:12Profile









 Re: Sooo where us the lower???

Acts 1:6-8

•••So when they came together, they asked Him, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?”

Jesus replied, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by His own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you, and you will be My witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."•••

I think this answers my question why the church, particularly in North America, has no spiritual power. It was all a transition.

That still begs the question why the persecuted church in restricted nations operates in Acts 1:8 power. One brother who has a persecuted ministry in a restricted nation, says we step outside our door and see the book of Acts in operation.

I guess this brother and others like him who minister in hostile nations did not realize that the book of Acts is simply a transition.

Bro Blaine  

 2017/7/30 7:34
narrowpath
Member



Joined: 2005/1/9
Posts: 1107
Germany NRW

 Re:

There are some people who would not believe
in the gifts of the Holy Spirit for today even if the dead were raised right in front of them.

Nobody who has experienced the baptism with the Holy Spirit would argue like our brother.

Christianity without the power of the Holy Spirit is reduced to a moral framework that brings death to the hearer.


 2017/7/30 10:01Profile
a-servant
Member



Joined: 2008/5/3
Posts: 435


 Re:


It takes a lot of time to understand, especially when you
learned it the wrong way, some things you can read 5 times
without ever understanding what he said exactly,
until finally suddenly you can see the clarity of it,
here in the words of Harry Ironside from his chapter:

The Baptism of the Holy Spirit and of Fire

"......in Paul's epistle to the Corinthians
where it is shown to be something past, in which all who were
believers had shared: "By one Spirit are we all baptized into one body,
whether we be Jews or Gentiles" (1 Cor. 12:13), and the epistle is
addressed to "all that in every place, call upon the name of Jesus Christ
our Lord" (1 Cor. 1:2). Many of them were weak Christians, many
were carnal, many failed to enter into much of the glorious truth
pertaining to the New Dispensation, but all were baptized by the one
Spirit into the one body of Christ"

"....if [you are] not already numbered among those baptized by the
Holy Spirit into the body of Christ, you may now receive the Spirit
by the hearing of faith, as did the Galatians of old when they believed
the things spoken by Paul (Gal. 3:2,3)."




So he says the baptism of the church by the Holy Spirit is past tense,
one baptism for all believers

We now Receive The Spirit by hearing of God's word
by faith and not by acts of the law [or any religious activity]

Once you can see that you understand why there is no further
mention of a second blessing or baptism of the Holy Spirit

 2017/7/31 6:41Profile
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re: Norrowpath

NP, I'm not a cessationist and I am not endorsing the article that A-servant posted. I think I have a similar church experience as you in being part of 'bible centred' charismatic leaning churches for many years. However I do question much of what has been taught and accepted in these circles. I know the arguments and scriptures used to support Charismatic position and I also know many of them do not stand up to correct biblical interpretation.

I just want to question the statements you posted to think are they valid?

You said:
1/ "There are some people who would not believe
in the gifts of the Holy Spirit for today even if the dead were raised right in front of them."

2/ "Nobody who has experienced the baptism with the Holy Spirit would argue like our brother."

3/ "Christianity without the power of the Holy Spirit is reduced to a moral framework that brings death to the hearer."

Point 1/ Should we really base our doctrinal position of the ministry of the Holy Spirit on a miracle? What about false signs and wonders? Paul said even if an angel was to appear to us with a message, do not believe it if it is contrary to what has already been taught.

Point 2/ Should we base our doctrinal position on subjective experience or on the revealed word of God?

Point 3/ This is really a false representation of people who do not believe in the second blessing or Baptism of the Spirit. I don't know any believers, even the most ardent cessationists ( and I know quite a few) who would not declare they need the power of the Holy Spirit in their life and ministry. They just don't believe in the 'sign gifts' for today (i.e tongues, prophecies, healing miracles). We can disagree with them on these points, but that does not mean they reject the ministry of the Holy Spirit completely.

Now having said all that, I do think the cessationists are also twisting scriptures to validate their position. Somewhere between the two extremes of cessationism and 'second blessing' folk there is a truth that we need to get from scripture. I tend to lean toward the view that the filling and empowering of the Spirit is distinct from the indwelling abiding ministry of the Spirit and necessary for all believers and that the gifts given are still for the church today, as and when the Holy Spirit chooses to give them for a particular time/place as the need arises.

I don't believe there is a second blessing category of Christians, but a second, third, fourth, and infinitum and that it is available for all to partake in if we yield ourselves to the LORD. There are multitudes who claim to have the 'Baptism/second blessing' that are not at all full of the Holy Spirit..this is a big problem in the church today and needs to be faced. It is a direct result of wrong theology.


_________________
Dave

 2017/7/31 7:29Profile
StirItUp
Member



Joined: 2016/6/4
Posts: 949
Johannesburg, South Africa

 Re:

Bro Dave,

I understand that you are trying to find the perfect balance and the correct scriptural interpretation and I agree with you that we should stand against excesses and for biblical truth.

Whether we believe we received the Holy Spirit at conversion or later is not as important as that we have received Him, and are being filled every day and depending on Him in all we do, including ministry.
But this must include everything the Holy Spirit can and wants to do in and through His people.
Surely a miraculous supernatural Spirit is going to produce supernatural miraculous results? Not weirdness...

One cannot help but notice the different quality even in preaching between those who are "Spirit filled" and those who deny that signs and wonders are for today.

It is great to emphasize the fruit of the Spirit and yes, character is very important in our Christian witness, but so is the Power of God in demonstration.
Is the Holy Spirit divided?

To Timothy Paul said:" for you have not received a spirit of timidity but of Power, Love AND a sound mind (self control)"
Compare that to 1 Corinthians 12,13 and 14.
Power. Love and Self control

I Thessalonians 5 verse 19 to 21:" Do not extinguish (quench) the Spirit. Do not despise prophecies, but examine all things and hold fast to what is good"

Seems to me that tongues and interpretation, prophecies and all the gifts the Holy Spirit brings with Himself was intended to be a part of "normal" church body life.

Paul said to the Corinthians....I speak with tongues more than you all....
He wasn't speaking about preaching to a foreign people in a foreign language, was he?
No, he was speaking of the personal prayer language/ languages the Holy Spirit will give to those who trust Him for it.

Those who hold "Strange Fire" conferences would do better to hold "No Fire" conferences and have days of repentance for grieving and quenching this precious gift of God to us, His Holy Spirit.

Blessings,


_________________
William

 2017/7/31 9:21Profile
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

Bro William,

Thanks for your reply. I think this in a worthwhile topic to discuss and be open about. I'm certainly not in the mind to argue (nor I sense you), but want to be open to think about these things more carefully. I think there is far too much misrepresentation from both sides on this issue. The cessationists look on the 'baptism of the Spirit' guys as all cut from the Benny Hinn/Ken Copeland cloth and the the Baptism guys consider all the Cessationist to be devoid of the Spirit and dry as old bones. Both are unfair assumptions.
__________________________________________________________
You said: "Whether we believe we received the Holy Spirit at conversion or later is not as important as that we have received Him, and are being filled every day and depending on Him in all we do, including ministry."
----------------------------------------------------------
Although I agree with you on this, when you say "..important as that we have received Him (the Holy Spirit)", well if someone is born again of the Spirit they have received Him, otherwise they do not belong to Christ (Romans 8). It's not have we received the Holy Spirit, but are we 'filled' with the Spirit. The inference in your statement is that the cessationist folk have not received the Spirit, which cannot be true is they are truely born again.

__________________________________________________________
You said: "Seems to me that tongues and interpretation, prophecies and all the gifts the Holy Spirit brings with Himself was intended to be a part of "normal" church body life."
-----------------------------------------------------------
This 'tongues and interpretation' has a whole lot of Charismatic/Pentecostal 'traditions' that I think do not stand up to scriptural or reasonable logic. I'm speaking as someone who has exercised the gift of tongues.
generally it goes like this. Someone speaks out in an unknown tongue, then another interprets said 'tongue, normally as a prophetic word. Now how do we really know if the is really the correct interpretation?? Hardly ever will it be questioned. Plus why have a prophecy in a language we don't know, just for it to be supposedly interpreted. Why not just have a prophecy in the language of the people, which is what Paul tell us to do in 1 Corinthians.
Thirdly Paul says when we speak in 'tongues' we "speak to God and not man", so it cannot be a prophecy according to this. As I said, too many Pentecostal traditions, almost as bad as the cessationist with their 'traditions'.

___________________________________________________________
You said: "Those who hold "Strange Fire" conferences would do better to hold "No Fire" conferences and have days of repentance for grieving and quenching this precious gift of God to us, His Holy Spirit."
-----------------------------------------------------------
I agree with your sentiments about the wisdom and content of such conferences. But it must be said that the vast majority (and largest churches) in the Charismatic movement promoting the 'gifts of the Spirit' are on the crazy end and are operating in 'strange fire' and this does need exposing (we all know the ones that folk are flocking to) and it is this that the likes of MacArthur are aiming at. The problem is, as a cessationist he labels all those who operate in the spiritual gifts as the same, even his own associated people such as John Piper and Tim Conway.


_________________
Dave

 2017/7/31 11:28Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5606
NC, USA

 Re:

I am going to get grilled for this but I think Paul had a "slip of then pen" or more likely transcribers did, at 1 Cor 14:22 based on reasoning given by Dave which I agree with. It seems the thought in that verse should be reversed based on what Paul wrote earlier in Ch 14


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Todd

 2017/7/31 11:55Profile
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3420
This world is not my home anymore.

 Re:

Quote:
by bearmaster
That still begs the question why the persecuted church in restricted nations operates in Acts 1:8 power. One brother who has a persecuted ministry in a restricted nation, says we step outside our door and see the book of Acts in operation.


Bear,

I read a book on fasting and in it, the writer was asked why when he ministered in other nations there were miraculous healings and not in America. I'm paraphrasing what he said, 'it was because we have health insurance, no one needs God in that manner.'

I'm thinking we have become slaves in Egypt (health care system) and did not even know it. I and others told numerous people since Obamacare came into being, we need to learn to believe the Bible and lay hands on the sick AND EXPECT MIRACLES

Health care $$$ is taking precedent over how much life will they get out of the care. It's sad but I believe this is happening for a reason... to get people to cry out to God.

Gifts 4, 5 and 6 are the gift of faith, gifts of healings and the working of miracles. These gifts are for the taking if one wants to go boldly to the throne of grace!!

Will everyone be healed that we lay hands on? No, but we can't let that stop us from praying in faith believing and in the name of Jesus and letting Him heal who He wants!

God is good,
Lisa


_________________
Lisa

 2017/7/31 13:06Profile





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